STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Because when everyone is dead there are no more loose ends to tie up. Is Boba Fett alive? Who cares, he's dead. Is Jar Jar Binks a Sith? Doesn't matter, he's dead. Do those characters in Rebels matter? Not if they're dead. Will Reylo's baby be the best eva? Dead.

Then they can do whatever they want afterwards in the post-dead star wars universe.

I get what you mean but that really doesn’t connect things together. And being dead doesn’t erase the past or it’s importance

 

[vcmmafan]

 

[Magooglie]

I get what you mean but that really doesn’t connect things together. And being dead doesn’t erase the past or it’s importance

In connects everything in nothingness. Kylo Ren will succeed in his plot to erase the past and its importance. And then when people go "Well the old trilogy didn't do that!" Disney can go "This is completely new and different!"

 

[trolololol]

Holy shit Jumanji is beating TLJ for the 4 day weekend. Jumanji might start passing Star Wars in the dailies this week. And next weekend it might beat it again.

Star Wars getting dethroned in its 3rd weekend? Unheard of.

The Last Jedi made over a billion dollars in less than a month, and is already the 10th highest grossing film of all time.

"Dethroned"

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

In connects everything in nothingness. Kylo Ren will succeed in his plot to erase the past and its importance. And then when people go "Well the old trilogy didn't do that!" Disney can go "This is completely new and different!"

Mag this is a very loose connection you’re trying to make.


Do you hhave think Disney is gonna get rid of Jedi and lightsabers and all that all together

 

[moreorless87]

Mag this is a very loose connection you’re trying to make.

Do you think Disney is gonna get rid of Jedi and lightsabers and all that all together

I actually suspect this is part of the problem The Last Jedi had, on one level it wanted to be a new Empire Strikes Back that tried to redefine what Starwars could be but ultimately it didn't really change things much at all, perhaps because Disney/Abrams didn't want them changed?

The problem for example with Luke just giving up and living on his island for example. The obvious alternative to that is that Luke really has gained some wisdom from the ancient jedi texts and his own soul searching. The most obvious direction to me would seem to be some kind of view of the force were negative emotions and the darkside are acknowledged more yet this would potentially upset the existing Jedi/Sith situation.

Equally the Rey/Kylo plot which was I think by far the best aspect of this film would also have potentially upset things if it was followed though on. If Rey either joins him or at least doesn't outright reject it then your also potentially meddling with the Jedi/Sith setup with the potential for these two characters to inhabit some kind of middle ground.

Honestly I think this was a significant problem the prequels had as well. If your going to shift your films focus towards characters like Anakin and Kylo then you need a more nuanced view of such characters. In the OT this wasn't an issue because it was Luke's character who was the dynamic focus and we got a more nuanced view of the "light side" to give it depth. Anakin flipping between heroic and "dark" like a switch just didn't work for me, didn't feel believable as a character, just making him a bit arrogant/petulant wasn't nearly enough.

 

[Tiny]

Mark knows...and is expressing it as much as Disney would allow it.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

I actually suspect this is part of the problem The Last Jedi had, on one level it wanted to be a new Empire Strikes Back that tried to redefine what Starwars could be but ultimately it didn't really change things much at all, perhaps because Disney/Abrams didn't want them changed?

The problem for example with Luke just giving up and living on his island for example. The obvious alternative to that is that Luke really has gained some wisdom from the ancient jedi texts and his own soul searching. The most obvious direction to me would seem to be some kind of view of the force were negative emotions and the darkside are acknowledged more yet this would potentially upset the existing Jedi/Sith situation.

Equally the Rey/Kylo plot which was I think by far the best aspect of this film would also have potentially upset things if it was followed though on. If Rey either joins him or at least doesn't outright reject it then your also potentially meddling with the Jedi/Sith setup with the potential for these two characters to inhabit some kind of middle ground.

Honestly I think this was a significant problem the prequels had as well. If your going to shift your films focus towards characters like Anakin and Kylo then you need a more nuanced view of such characters. In the OT this wasn't an issue because it was Luke's character who was the dynamic focus and we got a more nuanced view of the "light side" to give it depth. Anakin flipping between heroic and "dark" like a switch just didn't work for me, didn't feel believable as a character, just making him a biut arrogant/petulant wasn't nearly enough.

I think they should've had Luke, only momentarily, want to kill Kylo and that's why he went into hiding, to really spend time finding out what the force is. How he can be a light side user all his life and yet he still had fear and doubt and let the dark side take hold of him even only for a split second.

Maybe he's searching for truths and reassessing what it means to be a force user and what the force means. Searching out old wisdom and anchiet texts of both the light and dark side.

This was a huge missed opportunity imo. They could've made Luke the real catalyst for change but they underused the character and painted him in the wrong light.


I say this because the Rebels cartoon delves deeply into "grey" aspects of the force. Even when Ashoka came back she walked the middle. It's kind of a theme that's been touched on in the new canon and even in the old canon

 

[Magooglie]

Mag this is a very loose connection you’re trying to make.


Do you hhave think Disney is gonna get rid of Jedi and lightsabers and all that all together

I made a tongue in cheek response but then you responded back so I decided to run with it. Disney wouldn't get rid of the hallmarks of the money machine. I don't think they can tie up whatever story threads they believe exist either. They'll just set up the next wave of movies which should be coming shorty after 9.

 

[moreorless87]

I think they should've had Luke, only momentarily, want to kill Kylo and that's why he went into hiding, to really spend time finding out what the force is. How he can be a light side user all his life and yet he still had fear and doubt and let the dark side take hold of him even only for a split second.

Maybe he's searching for truths and reassessing what it means to be a force user and what the force means. Searching out old wisdom and anchiet texts of both the light and dark side.

This was a huge missed opportunity imo. They could've made Luke the real catalyst for change but they underused the character and painted him in the wrong light.

I think the scene with Luke and Kylo could have itself been played more subtley where Luke has more of a legit reason than "thoughtcrime" to want to kill him, say showing Kylo having badly injuried another student in his anger.

As you say though it would have been so much more effective if Luke had been seriously questioning the light/dark divide. Maybe show more of the Jedi temple flashbacks which Luke being obsessional about avoiding the pull of the darkside to the degree he's not acknowledging negative emotions in his students. That would have made his failiure with Kylo more believable and his isolation more than mere defeatism if he was working against it.

Honestly to me The Last Jedi feels like an incredibly hypocritical film that pushes messages it doesn't ultimately back up. It looks to deconstruct Luke's heroism(ignoring seemingly that this had already happened in ESB and ROTJ) yet by the end of the film what do we have? badass heroic Jedi Luke taking on pure evil Kylo with none of the depth of the Luke/Vader confrontations, just action and a plotting twist. Equally the film talks up failiure as something to learn from yet is utterly unprepared to let Rey fail in the way Luke did in ESB, it doesnt allow Luke to have any wisdom to teach her(or for her to fail to take on such as with Luke and Yoda in ESB) and she outright rejects any temptation from Kylo, there are also no negative consequences to Rey's actions.

 

[liljoe]

Mark knows...and is expressing it as much as Disney would allow it.

Knows what? The Luke treatment was probably the best part of movie. Brilliant writing.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

What are the odds that episode 9 helps episode 8 make more sense.

This is why I say that. Because JJ was execituve producer on TLJ and (and E9) the script and all that was done before Force Awakens was released. So JJ saw the script and knew what was going to be in it. Now with Colin off episode 9 JJ said he's going to, "tie all the trilogies together."

So in some sense there was a vision for the last episode of the trilogy even tho there was gonna be different directors on the films.

Now if I'm wrong about that timeline let me know.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

I made a tongue in cheek response but then you responded back so I decided to run with it. Disney wouldn't get rid of the hallmarks of the money machine. I don't think they can tie up whatever story threads they believe exist either. They'll just set up the next wave of movies which should be coming shorty after 9.

Oh lol.

Well the reason I say that is becasue in some sense we saw the last jedi, in Luke dying. Are they gonna go back to the Jedi route and make Rey a full blown jedi? Or are they moving away from all that.

well Kylo as his own man with no attachments and the same for Rey. This movie has lots of promise if the writing is done properly and the concept is all there

I do wish Luke was still alive tho. His send off was one of my biggest problems with LJ

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

I think the scene with Luke and Kylo could have itself been played more subtley where Luke has more of a legit reason than "thoughtcrime" to want to kill him, say showing Kylo having badly injuried another student in his anger.

As you say though it would have been so much more effective if Luke had been seriously questioning the light/dark divide. Maybe show more of the Jedi temple flashbacks which Luke being obsessional about avoiding the pull of the darkside to the degree he's not acknowledging negative emotions in his students. That would have made his failiure with Kylo more believable and his isolation more than mere defeatism if he was working against it.

Honestly to me The Last Jedi feels like an incredibly hypocritical film that pushes messages it doesn't ultimately back up. It looks to deconstruct Luke's heroism(ignoring seemingly that this had already happened in ESB and ROTJ) yet by the end of the film what do we have? badass heroic Jedi Luke taking on pure evil Kylo with none of the depth of the Luke/Vader confrontations, just action and a plotting twist. Equally the film talks up failiure as something to learn from yet is utterly unprepared to let Rey fail in the way Luke did in ESB, it doesnt allow Luke to have any wisdom to teach her(or for her to fail to take on such as with Luke and Yoda in ESB) and she outright rejects any temptation from Kylo, there are also no negative consequences to Rey's actions.

Yes the problem with that scene is that it's far too quick. A little more emotional buildup and story, would've made it work much better

this movie is a complete deconstruction of the hero and in a meta sense the entire genre of what a "hero' is/was meant throughout time. I didn't need this from Rian, this seems like dick swinging to me. Smarter than everyone else type of thing.

Honestly what I wanted was a movie about Snoke/ren and Luke/Rey. Watching their progress and learning some real mythology about the force. Watch their training and all that. It could've been so damn good. Hell, let Luke still be in isolation and questioning what the force is or what it means. hes more cynical and doesn't trust the force like he once did so he is searching for wisdom.

we didn't get that obviously

 

[Bob Gray]

Mark knows...and is expressing it as much as Disney would allow it.

The William Shatner tweet all but confirmed it. Hamill wasnt happy about it but did his job.

 

[Magooglie]

Oh lol.

Well the reason I say that is becasue in some sense we saw the last jedi, in Luke dying. Are they gonna go back to the Jedi route and make Rey a full blown jedi? Or are they moving away from all that.

well Kylo as his own man with no attachments and the same for Rey. This movie has lots of promise if the writing is done properly and the concept is all there

I do wish Luke was still alive tho. His send off was one of my biggest problems with LJ

Luke outright states he won't be the last jedi and we see Rey has the old jedi books in her possession. People have mentioned that him seeing the Jedi/Sith cycle of violence is the reason he steps away from everything but then the end undercuts that argument completely.

I agree that having Luke die was a bad move. He needs to attain his version of Jedi master-dom and Rey should be his fully realized student. I'm going to be super annoyed if he comes back as a force ghost to continue training Rey full time and she reads the books and is like "This is what it really means to be a jedi!" Bleh.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Mark knows...and is expressing it as much as Disney would allow it.

Ridiculous. I feel terrible for Mark Hamill.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Luke outright states he won't be the last jedi and we see Rey has the old jedi books in her possession. People have mentioned that him seeing the Jedi/Sith cycle of violence is the reason he steps away from everything but then the end undercuts that argument completely.

I agree that having Luke die was a bad move. He needs to attain his version of Jedi master-dom and Rey should be his fully realized student. I'm going to be super annoyed if he comes back as a force ghost to continue training Rey full time and she reads the books and is like "This is what it really means to be a jedi!" Bleh.

Well I disagree your point about Luke using the force at the end undercuts his argument. Who's to say the dark side is not more powerful at the moment? Especially since Luke went into hiding and cut himself off from using the force. Even the strength of the first order, under Snoke, is in control even tho they seemed to take monumental losses at the destruction of starkiller base.


And yes Luke needed to be a trainer and discover something different about the force while he was in exile. That would've done nicely imo. That's what I was ultimately hoping for

 

[Magooglie]

Well I disagree your point about Luke using the force at the end undercuts his argument. Who's to say the dark side is not more powerful at the moment? Especially since Luke went into hiding and cut himself off from using the force. Even the strength of the first order, under Snoke, is in control even tho they seemed to take monumental losses at the destruction of starkiller base.


And yes Luke needed to be a trainer and discover something different about the force while he was in exile. That would've done nicely imo. That's what I was ultimately hoping for

Not him using the force, him affirming the Jedi will go on. The philosophy that he supposedly has of the Jedi/Sith being locked in cyclical violence actually works for him in ROTJ because he goes to the Death Star expecting to die there with the Emperor and Vader. He may have personally believed that the Sith/Jedi are the cause of violence in the universe similar to how people here think religion is the major cause of violence, though those people are wrong. When he was a kid he wanted to join the Imperial academy and probably be a Tie fighter pilot so he had no problem with the Empire, though we do know that Biggs, his childhood friend, did do that but joined the Rebellion. But enough about Luke's teenage views on things, Vader turns and dies and Luke decides he wants to go on living. And then between that and setting up the academy he decides the Jedi way is worth propagating once again. But then the dark side defeats him once and he hightails it out of there and decides that the dark side gaining hegemony of the force is a-ok by him. If he wanted his philosophy to come true he should have told Rey to join the dark side and tell everyone else to surrender to the First Order. But then he comes back and is like "Violence cycle back on! Yar!"

I do wonder if they'll continue on with the weapons merchants aspect of the story they opened up with in TLJ because it has parallels to use of the force.

 

[moreorless87]

Yes the problem with that scene is that it's far too quick. A little more emotional buildup and story, would've made it work much better

this movie is a complete deconstruction of the hero and in a meta sense the entire genre of what a "hero' is/was meant throughout time. I didn't need this from Rian, this seems like dick swinging to me. Smarter than everyone else type of thing.

Honestly what I wanted was a movie about Snoke/ren and Luke/Rey. Watching their progress and learning some real mythology about the force. Watch their training and all that. It could've been so damn good. Hell, let Luke still be in isolation and questioning what the force is or what it means. hes more cynical and doesn't trust the force like he once did so he is searching for wisdom.

we didn't get that obviously

A big problem of course is that its working somewhat from a false premise that Luke existed as a traditional hero prior to this film when actually he was already deconstructed in ESB and ROTJ. Honestly yes I does kind of feel like an arrogant film to me, too confident in the appeal of its basic premises and so not focused enough on making sure their actually pulled off well.

Again though I think there is the potential for Disney to have had a very large impact on this, not being willing to allow this film to truly redefine Starwars in the fashion ESB did as that risks future profitability. That's especially true of the ending for me which really does feel like a cheap retreat to safe ground an further undermines the more interesting concepts in the film.

Honestly were talking about the Luke section because its possible to see how that section could have been improved on. The resistance plot on the other hand is just so horribly flawed it would be tough to know whether he start with suggesting improvements to it, I mean yeah the very basic idea of Poe's warlike nature being deconstructed might be interesting but its just so paper thin, illogical and manipulative as it is.