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Discussion in 'The War Room' started by JDragon, Feb 6, 2018.
...and yet their predicted future value keeps them strong with major investors
I don't post nearly often enough to necessarily 'care' but there is good discussion to be had on this forum when it's allowed to happen. Unfortunately, too often STEM-related topics are either bombarded by complete dribblers (majority of cases) or somehow turn overtly sociopolitical of all things - sensibilities get triggered, people get nasty and before you know it threads are ruined or flipped into The Dump. You no longer in Deutschland?
I did a bit of research into Musk's companies a few days ago, the numbers were so bad that I figured that I had to be misreading something. Tesla has apparently lost 5 billion dollars, and is over 10 billion in debt. The only discernible cash flow seems to come from loans, subsidies, selling emissions credits, recruiting new investors, and pre-sales on cars that he apparently can't deliver.
I'm still in disbelief that it could be a PT Barnum situation on a scale this large and am looking for what I'm missing. So far it just seems to be the hope that the company's income will start closing the gap soon.
Tesla’s new Model 3 has finally arrived, and not a moment too soon. The critics seem to love it, and Tesla management says it’s already received deposits for 500,000 of the vehicles. Perhaps now Elon Musk can finally get his hand out of U.S. taxpayers’ wallets?
As wide-ranging as these various entrepreneurial ventures may be, they all have one thing in common – not a single one of them would get funding in a competitive private capital market if it weren’t for massive (and I do mean massive) taxpayer-funded government subsidies.
A study published two years ago by The Los Angeles Times revealed that just three of Musk’s ventures – SolarCity Corp. (which manufactured and installed solar energy systems before its 2016 merger with Tesla Motors Inc.), Tesla Motors Inc. (which manufactures electric vehicles), and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX (which builds rocket ships) – had received $4.9 billion in government subsidies to that point in time. By now, Musk’s various ventures have sucked well over $5 billion from government coffers.
But granting literally billions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies to Musk’s firms isn’t the worst of it. No, that honorific is reserved for this little gem: In order to induce car buyers to spend their money on electric vehicles, the federal government offers a $7,500 rebate on the purchase price.
Some states enhance that rebate with rebates of their own. In California, for instance, purchasers of electric vehicles get a state-funded rebate of $2,500 more.
There’s a phrase for that – it’s called “crony capitalism.” And it stinks.
Crony capitalism relies on government picking winners and losers. It depends on government choosing to move resources to a favored enterprise, even as it refuses to move resources to disfavored enterprises.
Tesla down BIG again today. Disney up. McDonalds up. Facebook up. Everything is up. Not Tesla. Your only argument is now the stock price which I know a lot more about than you. As does the rest of the objective world. The stock has been downgraded. Fallen flat. Recommended sell. Technicals are garbage. What is your fuckin argument again?
You aren't missing anything. A look at the fundamentals can only draw one conclusion. People see bright lights and are blinded by them. Sucker born every minute. Barnum is an apt comparison. Look at the people I am arguing with. Arguing against facts. lol.
I also noticed a few months ago that his businesses were frequently the most short-sold on their entire stock exchange. So it does seem like I'm not misreading things.
Tesla’s autopilot feature has been a big selling point of its existing car models, and the company recently announced that it’s producing AI chipsthat Elon Musk claims “will be the best in the world.” So naturally, when Navigant research analyzed the top 19 companies developing self-driving technology, Tesla ranked… dead last.
You could claim that. I'm not joking. If I gave you 10 billion dollars in loans and subsidies, and you didn't have to turn a profit from it, you could hire the best people from Google, Apple, etc. at an inflated cost and tell them to work on their craziest idea that Google or Apple won't fund. Then you just put your name on it.
This is actually very close to what Steve Jobs did. Except instead of subsidies, he had Wozniak's Apple II driving the same general model. He eventually lost money and got fired too, then came back later once he became a better businessman.
Jobs is ten times the businessman Musk is. He got things done. Jobs came back and brought Apple back from the dead to the biggest company in world history.
People were arguing about NASA vs private space exploration. Our tax dollars paid for this fuckin rocket.
Tesla honcho Elon Musk is not like Steve Jobs, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, or even LeBron James, who made their billions through innovation in a free, fair market. Musk has made his wealth from the taxpayer (if not all, at least a lot of). In a particularly glorious, damning bit of investigative reporting, the Los Angeles Times recently determined that Musk’s empire had been built on almost $5 billion in government subsidies.
“Now the state appears to be in the business of subsidizing a billionaire’s company (Tesla) and millionaires who want to buy these boutique electric cars. In my backyard, where I live, people are very, very poor, and they are already paying into Cap and Trade. If Cap and Trade continues to go forward, that could add another 40 cents, 45 cents, maybe more to the cost of a gallon of gasoline, for those folks… [who] are still not going to be able to afford these $70,000+ cars.”
Agreed with most everything except that Jobs, while much better at running a company than Musk, shouldn't be in the same breath as those other people. If it weren't for his partnership with Wozniak, he wouldn't be famous.
And without Jobs to show Wozniak he had something special and shove it down his throat, nobody would have heard of Wozniak either. Jobs busted his ass and had vision. When he left, the company collapsed. When he came back, it came back. I used to hate the guy and think he is an asshole still but he is an irreplaceable CEO. Truly something special. Results speak for themselves.
I was just reading something about Woz, who is a great guy btw, and he was saying how he still gets paid by Apple and always will. Though not as much as he used to. He said the only person he reports to and could fire him is Jobs and he is dead. lol.
I'm not hyping up Wozniak here though. People hype up Jobs insanely. He's better than Musk, but he shouldn't be in the same breath as Lebron James or someone who didn't need that kind of assistance.
That's not good. My nephew works for SolarCity Corp. out in California. Very bright kid. After graduating from Harvard, he went on to get a Master's degree. Amazing thing is that he could not get a job after school. SolarCity Corp. was the only company that finally hired him, but he does not make that much. So, how are people with a BA from average schools getting jobs?
So, now what? When is the next SpaceX Falcon Heavy going up?
"'Blue Origin' is an American privately funded aerospace manufacturer and spaceflight services company set up by Amazon.com founder Jeff Bezos (net worth: 115.7 billion USD) with its headquarters in Kent, Washington. The company is developing technologies to enable private human access to space with the goal to dramatically lower costs and increase reliability. Blue Origin is employing an incremental approach from suborbital to orbital flight, with each developmental step building on its prior work. Blue Origin is developing a variety of technologies, with a focus on rocket-powered Vertical Takeoff and Vertical Landing (VTVL) vehicles for access to suborbital and orbitalspace."
So, Jeff Bezos is also doing the same thing with his rockets. Is this a new hobby for billionaires?
'New Shepard' launch in 2015. Ok, this thing looks like a 'penis' going into space. Was it designed by women?
A perfect vertical landing also...
An important distinction is that the New Shepard (named after the first American to go to space) is not an orbital rocket. It basically goes straight up, enters space, and comes back down. SpaceX is landing rockets that have delivered satellites into orbit, sometimes beyond low earth orbit. This requires an incredible amount of horizontal speed which, in addition to being much, much larger rockets to begin with, puts SpaceX far ahead of Blue Origin in the landing, and general rocket game.
The Falcon Heavy is also more powerful than Blue Origin's next rocket, the New Glenn, which is years away from a launch.
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, --and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of --Wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air...
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew --
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.
John Magee, High Flight
The last time I read about Teslas value as a whole was several months ago, and it's definitely changed since then. I'm recalling quotes lke this one, from August - "Over the course of 2017, the company’s market capitalization has soared beyond those of major manufacturers like Ford, GM, BMW, Honda, and Nissan".
I don't know how directly market cap relates to stock price, but yeah it's gone down since then. Point taken.
Nope, I moved to Seattle two weeks ago.
NASA had a better rocket 50 years ago - a much better rocket.
Elon is brilliant but the overstatements following this recent launch are nauseating.