Single Leg vs. Double Leg

[gocubs1815]

Are two legs really better than one?

I've got no wrestling backgroud, but have been noticing that single legs might be more effective for BJJ and MMA than double legs.

A lot of what I feel is the misconception is that people who watch a lot of high level MMA see elite level wrestlers (koscheck and St. Pierre) and think they can pull off a double leg shooting from the outside. Having done SOME training with a wrestling instructor for my BJJ, I know that notion is pretty much ascenine, and getting inside first (collar tie, 2 on 1, clinch, etc.) is imparative.

So what I've been seeing a lot of is people going for the double leg versus the single, or getting a single and trying to transition to a double insted.

Is that really wise? I feel the single leg you can keep the contol, and have more options (forward, backward, turn the corner, sweep the leg) to get the takedown. I also feel the double requires more strength and is easier to get sprawled on.

Thoughts?

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Both are effective, especially when used in combination. It's a matter of preference. Neither is better or worse than the other.

 

[zemanjaski]

^ pretty much.

I have a preference for single legs, but you need to be able to use either.

 

[fourfif**]

Singles are (alot) easier to counter than a good, hard double leg.

 

[WARRENMANIA**]

Singles are (alot) easier to counter than a good, hard double leg.

A good single leg with a good pivot is a lot hard to stop than a power double imo. Plus with singles you can use trips more if you're agile enough.

 

[johnyboy]

I like to use single legs a lot becuase of the options it gives me.

 

[lts5025]

Both are good. If you can switch from one to the other, then you're really set.

 

[td82394]

I like single legs because you're working with less weight. With doubles, you're carrying half of a guy's body weight, and that's assuming that you don't lift him up. With singles, you're only working with a quarter. They're also easier to set up, have more finishes, and more often than not, put you in a better position to grapple. That being said, a perfect double leg will land you in side control every time and you have to stop it the first time or else it's too late.

 

[fourfif**]

A good single leg with a good pivot is a lot hard to stop than a power double imo. Plus with singles you can use trips more if you're agile enough.

I respect a good single, and use it myself, of course. High, low, snatch, and the whole range of finishes.

That being said.... when you switch from a single to a double to finish a takedown. If you have a double and switch to a single, you're going backwards.

I bait single legs in grappling all the time to this day, and even did so in my hayday against d1 level competition. In the words of the immortal Randy Lewis "evertime a guy's got my leg, I think I'm in scoring position".

Randy Lewis: The Impossible Leg - Wrestling -- Championship Productions, Inc.

Another good example is Ben Henderon. Shooting a single leg on that kid is an exercise in futility, but he's been taken down with doubles in mma.

 

[td82394]

If you have a double and switch to a single, you're going backwards.

Not necessarily. Sometimes the double just isn't there, but you can still salvage a single leg.

In the words of the immortal Randy Lewis "evertime a guy's got my leg, I think I'm in scoring position"

I disagree. If you're a good funk wrestler, then fine, but I would generally say that playing defense to score isn't a very intelligent idea because what if your opponent never goes for it? It's like every old school boxer says, you can't win a fight running away.

I bait single legs in grappling all the time to this day, and even did so in my hayday against d1 level competition.

I'd like to here some of those tales, Fourfif.

 

[fourfif**]

Not necessarily. Sometimes the double just isn't there, but you can still salvage a single leg.

So you're saying that sometimes your first option, the double, just isn't there, and you "salvage" the attempt with a single leg. It sounds like you are agreeing. The blast double is a higher percentage TD that when you can't get, you settle for a single.

I disagree. If you're a good funk wrestler, then fine, but I would generally say that playing defense to score isn't a very intelligent idea because what if your opponent never goes for it? It's like every old school boxer says, you can't win a fight running away.

Here's 50 year old Randy Lewis blatantly baiting the single at the qualifying event for the 2009 World Team Trials.

Starts at 1min.



Please don't take this the wrong way, but counter wrestling is the Russian style and they own the wrestling scene hands down, so saying that style isn't very intelligent is a selfpwn. Step away from Sherdog and spend some time on the USA Wrestling forum for real serious takedown discussion. Tell them what you are saying here and see how that goes. Seriously.

Here's a post from a discussion on the counter wrestling stance and why the US wrestling style of "shoot shoot attack shoot" always gets us wrecked on the international scene.

The Wrestling Nation • View topic - Stance

"Bent leg is a quicker transition to offense, since most offense involves moving your feet and bending your knees to some degree. So if they are already in position it's faster to transition. Think about how Burroughs is coiled up like a spring ready to strike with his double at any moment. Straight leg stance puts your hips farther back away from your opponent, and makes it easier to block your opponent with your head. So it's a good defensive position because you are more difficult to penetrate on, and if your opponent does manage to get in, your hips have more power to really sprawl hard from that position. Notice how even guys with a straight leg stance are very quick at transitioning to an attack with their setups. Many incorporate a drop step to change levels, etc.

Straight leg stance is more comfortable if your strategy involves a lot of counter wrestling and using tie-ups at your primary setup. Bent leg stance is more comfortable if you plan on making a constant offense your primary strategy, and using motion and fakes to setup your shots. The reason we run into a lot of trouble when we wrestle Russians and other guys who are mostly counter wrestlers is simply that our motion and fakes are not good enough, and so we are essentially shooting right into a train wreck, like what happened to Herbert at Worlds last year. But a guy like Burroughs seems to have the timing down to make it work."


The Wrestling Nation • View topic - Stance

Burroughs is the exception to the rule. And he does it with what? ... wait what's his nickname? Oh yeah, that's right. GOT DOUBLES.

I'd like to here some of those tales, Fourfif.

The last time I used that in competition was for a silver in freestyle in BAWA (bay area wrestling association) Championships. I beat Oregon in the semis and lost to Stanford in the finals in a match I was winning.

I've been a head wrestling coach and had kids just like you on my teams for years. And if it makes you feel any better, I still roll with D1 All Americans and I can assure they respect my takedowns much more than you do, because it's easier to earn my respect from someone on a mat than over the internet.

My position is that a double leg is a higher percentage takedown, and I've given my reasons why. That being said, you seem like a good kid, so no hard feelings.

 

[td82394]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but counter wrestling is the Russian style and they own the wrestling scene hands down, so saying that style isn't very intelligent is a selfpwn. Step away from Sherdog and spend some time on the USA Wrestling forum for real serious takedown discussion. Tell them what you are saying here and see how that goes. Seriously.

Why would I take it the wrong way? We're talking about wrestling, not something personal.

I've been a head wrestling coach and had kids just like you on my teams for years. And if it makes you feel any better, I still roll with D1 All Americans and I can assure they respect my takedowns much more than you do, because it's easier to earn my respect from someone on a mat than over the internet.

My position is that a double leg is a higher percentage takedown, and I've given my reasons why. That being said, you seem like a good kid, so no hard feelings.

Hard feelings? Again, we're two guys, one is teaching the other about wrestling. What hard feelings?

I did notice that the younger guy never really set up stuff. He just kind of shot in and hoped that it would work. That's being aggressive, sure, but that's also being really dumb. When I do shoot, I always try to set it up.

I would agree that a more upright stance is better if you can't take somebody down. I stand upright all the time. Not saying good ol' Randy Lewis didn't have a shot, but I imagine at 50 years old, you're not taking anybody down.

 

[Aussido]

I think a single leg is better for bjj. Not because it's better to shoot singles over doubles, but because there are soooooooooooooo many sweeps that finish or can be finished with a single leg. One of the next things I have lined up to work on is the single leg. I want to become a monster at finishing with a single leg, even if it means switching to the double.

 

[Pro Killer]

I've only just started Wrestling, so obviously the red belt and purple belt above has alot more weight than me on this arguement.

In my brief experience though: All I've been taught so far is the double leg, We'e spent entire lessons on it, Just getting to the position after the end of the shot, and then with all the finishes. We have been taught to snatch a single from 2on1, when the guy pulls away because he knows you're going to go for a front headlock, we been taught snatch a single and thats about it.
I've learnt myself (obviously they need work) 3 finishes to the single, the trip, running the pipe (as I've heard some people call it), and cutting the corner.
I personally feel alot more comfortable with the double- I know it will be because I've drilled it alot more everything I've heard in my BRIEF Wrestling training points to the double being number 1!

On my first day, One of the coaches said to me (I come from a Kickboxing Background Btw) A Double Leg is like the equivilant of a Jab in Boxing. He said as soon as someone Jabs, A Wrestler will shoot in for the double and put you on your ass.

I've also heard people like Mark Kerr state "Sometimes you won't be able to capture both legs so you'll have to go for a single" Implying that it's inferior.

I think in Randy's book he states it depends alot on which leg the fighter has forward compared to your stance, which takedown is easier.

Personally I think it will probably depend on body type too.. I'm a short Compact, Muscular/Fat guy. So when drilling double legs and the original shots my partners tell me, they don't stand a chance going head to head with me in those drills as I can smash them backwards quite easily.

When I've attempting Singles in live Wrestling, the experienced people I've come against, just hook the foot outside my legs, so I can't push it inbetween to run the pipe.

So I'd guess Doubles are the more effective, But Wrestling noob.

 

[D00M]

fake drag double. thats all i have to say

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Armbars or triangles, what's better?

 

[td82394]

I think in Randy's book he states it depends alot on which leg the fighter has forward compared to your stance, which takedown is easier.

I have to agree with that. I'm right handed, but I'm a freak of nature, so I wrestle lefty, so it's stupidly easy for me to set up a single leg, especially with other big boys. I just have to get past the elbows and it's right there.

When I've attempting Singles in live Wrestling, the experienced people I've come against, just hook the foot outside my legs, so I can't push it inbetween to run the pipe.

That's when you switch off to a double. If you can get it, running the pipe is a powerful and effective finish, but the problem is, most people are going to do something to defend against it, even if it's as small as hooking the foot outside. Trips are also powerful from there, but you have to get the timing down. Velasquez executes these beautifully in the Rothwell fight.

 

[fourfif**]

Why would I take it the wrong way? We're talking about wrestling, not something personal.



Hard feelings? Again, we're two guys, one is teaching the other about wrestling. What hard feelings?

I did notice that the younger guy never really set up stuff. He just kind of shot in and hoped that it would work. That's being aggressive, sure, but that's also being really dumb. When I do shoot, I always try to set it up.

I would agree that a more upright stance is better if you can't take somebody down. I stand upright all the time. Not saying good ol' Randy Lewis didn't have a shot, but I imagine at 50 years old, you're not taking anybody down.

Okay coolio. I like your enthusiasm for wrestling and hope you go out there and kick ass for years to come, representing our sport to the fullest.

Back to topic; there are many methods of taking someone down, and as Mikey Triangles mentioned it really is six of one, half dozen of the other. They both have their role and are just tools to be used when the opportunity presents itself.

So I am not saying doubles are better than singles, only that when you are defending a single, generally you are standing upright, and the takedown is more methodical. You might be hopping around on one leg, but at least you are staying in one place, not moving backward and at an angle at 15mph.

You can fight and find a way to score off of even a well shot and technically proficient single leg, but giving up the angle for a blast double from say an arm drag double as D00M mentions is generally a recipe for disaster.

And about the upright stance... being a counter fighter is not the same as running away and being scared to engage. Standing upright is a way to try and force the game into the clinch. The best wrestler in the history of the sport is an aggressive counter wrestler with an amazing clinch game.

You're nearly always upright doing greco or judo, but there are many very aggressive and dynamic takedowns in both sports.

 

[JarMan]

One of the problems with a single leg in bjj or mma is bare feet. It is much harder to control the leg near the ankle when there is no shoe on the foot. The flip side is that in bjj or mma you have to worry about the guillotine more off of the double. Takedowns are overall tougher in mma or bjj for these reasons IMO.

 

[beeble]

as stated above, neither are better then the other, its a matter of preference, personally im much more comfortable taking the double leg over the single leg, which is what i tend to go for, if i get a single i will transition to the double most of the time