Should Competitor's Be Allowed To Compete Up A Belt Class?

Should Competitor's Be Allowed To Compete Up A Belt Class?


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Lol looking for a way out by competing up a belt...that's a good one.

One of the guys who comes in and rolls around with my HS wrestling team was a D1 wrestler and a purple belt for 4 months. Just a guy looking to continue to compete. He invited me to a local tournament and to get beers after. He enters in, has an 8 man bracket and rapes everyone. It was a waste of his time competing against purple belts. He's not going to spend $1000 for a trip nationally so he can roll against purple belts his skill level. His teammate, a brown belt, got 2nd in his division and they go 50/50.

He needs to compete in brown belt but because of local rules, they won't let him. His instructor says he's not ready for a brown belt.

It's a pussy mentality to be scared of a lower belt beating you. I'd take a 28 yo athletic former D1 wrestler purple belt over a lot of brown belts who compete. Let them get their money's worth and more often than not, so will you. If they get hurt against, oh well. If your ego gets hurt because they beat your ass, get better.

That's awesome and a very valid point. There are many reasons for wanting to compete a belt color up. Unfortunately, more often than not, they are not always for the best reasons.
And yes, there are people who prefer to always compete up a belt color so they can have bragging rights if they win but if they've lose, they lost to a higher belt anyways. That is looking for a way out. I'm. It saying everyone is doing that but I've seen this more than a few times
 
That's awesome and a very valid point. There are many reasons for wanting to compete a belt color up. Unfortunately, more often than not, they are not always for the best reasons.
And yes, there are people who prefer to always compete up a belt color so they can have bragging rights if they win but if they've lose, they lost to a higher belt anyways. That is looking for a way out. I'm. It saying everyone is doing that but I've seen this more than a few times

Yeah he said that's why they did it and I get it. But I also see the other side of the coin where guys let their egos get in the way. He rolls with a very physical, wrestler mentality & is a freak athlete. He will definitely beat a lot of brown belts.

Shit at wrestling practice, he beats myself (though it's about 50/50) & my nephew (and it's not even close). I was a D2 wrestler and was quite successful and my nephew is a 2x state champ with the ability to win 4. I had to check my ego when he came in and I'm glad I did. He's made me a better wrestler and coach. That's what we do this all for, a continual cycle of growth. Whether that growth be as a person (learning to take a loss to someone not as accomplished as you) or athletically (learning you have to get smarter and more technical/stronger to beat that great athlete).
 
I don't think people should be allowed to compete up a belt if they just want to test themselves. If they are needed to actually form a division and the competition organizers ask them to, then I am fine with it.

The issue I have with someone competing up a level is it is a no lose situation for them and it is a no win situation for the other guys. If the lower rank wins, then he is going to claim he did something good. If the lower rank, loses then they will just say that was supposed to happen. While it is truly the reverse for the upper belt.
 
The answer is a points system through a legit association (USJA, USA Wrestling). The points system includes a forced ranking class.

I know in bike racing if you win all the CAT 5 (white belt) events they will force you to CAT 4. I have seen CAT 4 racers enter "open" class races and podium. Yu can also petition the local officers for a CAT up prior to earning it. For example a CAT 2 mountain biker might petition to race as a CAT 3 road racer, as opposed to starting at the bottom.

A dude who has 8 pro MMA fights and is not ranked in GI BJJ should not be competing against white belts. A brown belt Judoka should not be in a pool with white belts.
 
I don't think people should be allowed to compete up a belt if they just want to test themselves. If they are needed to actually form a division and the competition organizers ask them to, then I am fine with it.

The issue I have with someone competing up a level is it is a no lose situation for them and it is a no win situation for the other guys. If the lower rank wins, then he is going to claim he did something good. If the lower rank, loses then they will just say that was supposed to happen. While it is truly the reverse for the upper belt.

It's definitely has a loss component to it because nobody I know that's competitive would be fine saying "yeah I'm a brown belt but I got tapped by a black belt, no big deal." Yeah fuckin right lol
 
The real high level blue and purple belts in the world never seem to complain about competing in their respective divisions. This is because they understand that as high level competitors, they need to focus on high level competitions. They focus on Pans, Worlds, etc., and there is plenty of challenge there.

The complaints mostly come from lower belts that seem to think there is some magical thriving high level local scene that they could conveniently access if only they were allowed to enter. I can't think of any place in the US where this even really exists other than a few flashes here and there.

I have trained in some of the bigger BJJ areas of the US, and at the small local tournaments there the black belt competition scene is close to zero. They'd be lucky to have even one real black belt division go off at any weight. Almost always the black belts (if there are even any at all) just have to combine into brown or even purple.

Purple is about as high as it reliably goes locally just about anywhere. Beyond that it's pretty tough to find to competition locally in any kind of consistent manner. If you want to just get combined with whoever is closest you might be okay, but you're certainly not going to be in a solid 8 man bracket with guys your weight and level.

Even purple used to be pretty tough to find locally, but it's more consistent now. I don't think time will make that true at brown/black though because it's no longer a matter of pure numbers. There are tons of brown/black around in most locales, but brown/black who actually compete are like <5%. The vast majority of BJJ guys don't like to compete, and aversion to competition increases significantly with higher rank.

The reality is that most people are going to have to get on a plane to compete regularly at a decent level. I don't see how letting people enter up in local comps is really going to change that. It's not like there are legit packed divisions going off at brown/black locally at most places.
 
The real high level blue and purple belts in the world never seem to complain about competing in their respective divisions. This is because they understand that as high level competitors, they need to focus on high level competitions. They focus on Pans, Worlds, etc., and there is plenty of challenge there.

The complaints mostly come from lower belts that seem to think there is some magical thriving high level local scene that they could conveniently access if only they were allowed to enter. I can't think of any place in the US where this even really exists other than a few flashes here and there.

I have trained in some of the bigger BJJ areas of the US, and at the small local tournaments there the black belt competition scene is close to zero. They'd be lucky to have even one real black belt division go off at any weight. Almost always the black belts (if there are even any at all) just have to combine into brown or even purple.

Purple is about as high as it reliably goes locally just about anywhere. Beyond that it's pretty tough to find to competition locally in any kind of consistent manner. If you want to just get combined with whoever is closest you might be okay, but you're certainly not going to be in a solid 8 man bracket with guys your weight and level.

Even purple used to be pretty tough to find locally, but it's more consistent now. I don't think time will make that true at brown/black though because it's no longer a matter of pure numbers. There are tons of brown/black around in most locales, but brown/black who actually compete are like <5%. The vast majority of BJJ guys don't like to compete, and aversion to competition increases significantly with higher rank.

The reality is that most people are going to have to get on a plane to compete regularly at a decent level. I don't see how letting people enter up in local comps is really going to change that. It's not like there are legit packed divisions going off at brown/black locally at most places.

My last two tournaments were like this. One was a purple and up and the other one only had 3 purples in the whole tournament and they (myself included) were the highest ranked people competing.

The local super fight events seem to be the only real mid-level competition available when someone gets to the brown/black level and those are not consistent or reliable.
 
No, because it's just an enabler for solipsistic excuse-making ego protection.


"Oh look at me, I'm so brave and admirable for competing against people with higher grades of an arbitrary credential. Please validate me."

"Oh look at that, I lost, but it doesn't matter if I lost, because I lost against someone with a higher grade of arbitrary credential. Please don't devalidate me."
 
This is a problem in the bjj community that people even think like that. You roll against higher belts and bigger guys all the time. You try and beat their ass there and aren't happy if you lose, right?

Maybe I just don't like that pussy ass mentality that "oh my ego is so hurt, I'm a black belt and a brown belt tapped me" or "I'm a brown belt and I know these other brown belts are good so I won't compete" or "I'm a brown belt and this black belt tapped me but oh well he's a higher belt, no big deal." Fuck all of that. Once you have a technical knowledge of the sport (2+ years), you should not be happy losing to anyone or be scared to go against anyone your size.
 
I didn't think it'd be so divided. But I do appreciate all the feedback. Thanks guys.
 
If there is a record of them winning a comparable level tournament I would say why not. Unfortunately, time constraints prevent the optimal solution of the winner of the division below being allowed to take a seed in a tournament above them after they have won their respective tournament.
 
If Jon Jones (BJJ blue belt) decides to try a gi tournament, do you really want him competing as a blue belt?

More to the point, there have been Olympic level judoka and wrestlers, with no BJJ belt at all, who try BJJ tournaments out of interest (just as there are top level BJJ'ers who try out judo or wrestling competitions). Do you really want them competing as white belts?

Ironically enough, if say Jon Jones entered a BJJ competition as a blue belt people would complain he was sandbagging.
 
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If Jon Jones (BJJ blue belt) decides to try a gi tournament, do you really want him competing as a blue belt?

More to the point, there have been Olympic level judoka and wrestlers, with no BJJ belt at all, who try BJJ tournaments out of interest (just as there are top level BJJ'ers who try out judo or wrestling competitions). Do you really want them competing as white belts?

Ironically enough, if say Jon Jones entered a BJJ competition as a blue belt people would complain he was sandbagging.


I agree with you. And JJ would be sandbagging if he entered as a blue. Anyone remember when Holt was trying to get into black belt divisions but was having dificulty?
 
Jon Jones would be totally fine as a blue belt in the right tournament. That's probably why his instructors put him there. I'd trust their judgment.

The problem is assuming that a guy who is a full time, professional, elite level athlete should somehow just be able to wander into a random local comp unannounced and get fair matches somehow. It just does not work that way.

It's not like Jon Jones would get a match against another full time, professional, elite level athlete if he were simply allowed to enter as a brown belt locally or something. He'd probably be going against some part time hobbyist brown belt guy if there were even any there at all.

A guy at Jones's level is not walking into any local tournament unannounced if he's looking for a challenge. Guys at that level know better than that. Which is why in real life you don't hear these guys complaining about it. They just know what's up.
 
Jon Jones would be totally fine as a blue belt in the right tournament. That's probably why his instructors put him there. I'd trust their judgment.

The problem is assuming that a guy who is a full time, professional, elite level athlete should somehow just be able to wander into a random local comp unannounced and get fair matches somehow. It just does not work that way.

It's not like Jon Jones would get a match against another full time, professional, elite level athlete if he were simply allowed to enter as a brown belt locally or something. He'd probably be going against some part time hobbyist brown belt guy if there were even any there at all.

A guy at Jones's level is not walking into any local tournament unannounced if he's looking for a challenge. Guys at that level know better than that. Which is why in real life you don't hear these guys complaining about it. They just know what's up.

I see your point, but I think you'd be surprised. BJ Penn famously went into a local, recreational judo tournament and won against guys who work out once or twice a week. Though I suppose you could argue its rare enough that rules shouldn't be changed because of it.

However, at least locally the standard is that judo black belts and college level wrestlers are supposed to compete as BJJ blue belts/intermediate no-gi grapplers, though they're unranked and so officially white belts in BJJ. Even judo brown belts are considered sandbaggers if they enter a BJJ tournament as a white belt (which is what they in fact are). Rhadi Ferguson (BJJ black belt and judo Olympian) has said that your average Olympic level judoka is about a BJJ purple on the ground - but they'd be competing as BJJ white belts if they competed according to rank.

And what would you do with someone like Josh Barnett? He was unranked in BJJ until very recently, though he competed for many years in sub grappling against BJJ black belts with very good results. Should he have been competing against white belts all that time? Remember the complaints when he was given a BJJ black belt on the spur of the moment - the argument being he didn't fulfill the normal belt requirements, and should have just been allowed to continue competing against black belts despite officially being a white belt. Is there any BJJ tournament in the world where he should have been competing at as a beginner/white belt, when he'd been submitting, in no-gi competition, BJJ black belts?
 
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A belt division is for people of that belt color. Like a weight division is. If you mix in other people, you are putting people in a potentially awkward spot.

A person signs up to compete against other brown belts of his same weight, and possibly age.

There is a place to compete against other ages and weights, namely in the adult or absolute division. This is fair because everyone who enters is getting what they want, which is a mix.

You are adding a mix to a division that not everyone wants, which is unfair. Regardless what anyone thinks about whether or not a competitor should or shouldn't care, the competitor shouldn't be in that position.

If you want to allow people to compete up a ranking, then offer an absolute ranking division, so that competitors can make a choice.

Imagine any other category and it becomes clear you shouldn't be mixing.

If a competitor signs up for the purple belt 181 lb Masters 1 division and a blue belt, 168 lbs 50 year old blue belt is in the division, that's not fair. That's not what the purple 181 lb Masters 1 person signed up for.

No gi is good example of how to do it, in some tournaments. If you want to do what you're doing, just remove belts and let people register as beginner, intermediate, expert, etc.

It's one thing to ask at the time, but to have it be a matter of policy, that's not fair.
 
I think a big element is what rules open up or close down as the rank is considered. Slicers are a huge part of my game, and I'm experted to not use them till I've been promoted again. 3 months ago I 'needed' two promotions before Id be allowed to deploy a huge swath of my game.
 
I guess I just think its mostly silly. In most Judo tournaments there is advanced (black/brown) and everyone else. When I wrestled we had JV or Varsity. Winning the JV or the beginner divisions don't really mean dink. At best it indicated that some dude might be good in the future. In BJJ we get all sexed up over the "blue belt world champ". The guy has been a blue belt for 5 years and got 3rd in last years worlds but he is still a blue.

We talk about ego but it is a huge deal if a blue gets smoked by a white? Really? The problem is the structure of BJJ for profit tournaments and paying $100 to get beat as a blue in round one to a white. Make it double elimination with a $35 fee and a lot of the issues solve themselves.

I packed a lot of controversy in there so flame on.........

My thoughts as well...did we just become best friends?
 
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