Sherdog PC Build/Buy Thread, v6: My Power Supply Burned Down My House

Discussion in 'Video Game Forum' started by m52nickerson, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. Woldog

    Woldog Boxer

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    The 1080 has been out since the 1070 released and 1080 TI released a few months after. If you're gaming at 1080p there is no real reason to upgrade to a 1080 or 1080ti, if you're gaming at 1440p a 1080 will give a nice increase over a 1070 but not huge. At 4k the 1080ti is the premier card right now (Well that and the hugely expensive Titan).
     
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  2. 90 50

    90 50 Black Belt

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    I’m editing 4K video, so I need a fast gpu, think 1070 should be good but might need a 1080 looks like.
     
  3. Woldog

    Woldog Boxer

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    Editing would rely on CPU and Ram heavily. If you were rendering and texturing then a powerful gpu is a must, but I'm not sure a powerful GPU would be a huge need for editing video regardless of resolution size. I may be wrong but that's what I believe is the case.
     
  4. 90 50

    90 50 Black Belt

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    My laptop has the 8th gen i7 and 12g ram with an ssd and there are some issues.

    I was told I needed something with a strong gpu, I think mainly for slow motion editing when editing 4K shot at 240 frames per secound
     
  5. Madmick

    Madmick Scholar of Taghaza Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Are you sure? 2D Video editing doesn't tend to be GPU-intensive. That is pure CPU. Unless we are talking about one of the new phones will multiple front-facing cameras that can create a 3D movie effect you shouldn't benefit from that. Artificial effects that rely on 3D composites and effects create this need. Photos are also 2D, but some video/photo editing tools (such as rotating an image) require a virtual 3D space to be generated, and so these benefit from GPUs. Handy reference:
    https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Photoshop-CC-2017-NVIDIA-GeForce-GPU-Performance-899/
    [​IMG]
    Two key lessons to take away from the above:
    1. Where GPU acceleration is possible it provides a MASSIVE reduction in editing times
    2. The reduction in times via GPU doesn't vary significantly from the entry gamer-class card (GTX 1050 2GB GDDR5) vs. their most powerful gaming card (GTX Titan Pascal 12GB GDDR5X).
    Also, you may have to manually configure settings changes to enjoy GPU acceleration. Some require CUDA acceleration which is unique to NVIDIA cards (AMD are stuck with OpenGL while NVIDIA can do both). This is why many photo/video editors who rely on CUDA acceleration specifically purchase GTX cards if they don't buy a professional class production GPU. NVIDIA offers a free driver to download and install for Adobe Lightroom and Premiere Pro in order to enable CUDA acceleration:
    https://www.nvidia.com/object/adobe-lightroom-cc.html
    https://www.nvidia.com/object/adobe-premiere-pro-cc.html

    Your laptop CPU is beefy, but it isn't designed for editing. Those are typically 50%-70% as powerful as their desktop counterparts with similar branding (i.e. i3/i5/i7). You're almost certainly running the i7-8750H. Compare it to the i7-8700:
    http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-8750H-vs-Intel-Core-i7-8700/m470418vs3940
    "Effective Speed" is intended to rank gaming power, but for editing, all you care about is that "MC Mixed Score" (measuring the CPU's overall power). The desktop version is 31% more powerful, and this is still just a gamer CPU. It isn't an i7 Extreme or i9 processor designed for editing. Additionally, laptop drives tend to be thin 5400RPM drives with lower-than-average speeds even for that standard.

    So the blueprint for the best value editing machine you can buy:
    • CPU
      • Threadripper (1950X/1920X)
      • Ryzen 7 (any)
      • i7-7820X
    • GPU
      • NVIDIA GTX 1050 2GB
    • RAM
      • 32GB+ DDR4-3000 or faster
    • Storage
      • 7200RPM HDD
      • SSD (optional)
    Pretty simple. Performing the edits on an SSD could greatly reduce times, too, but SSDs are too expensive to be cost-effective for a "value" editing build unless you buy a cheap one without much storage, and this could mean transferring media files from a larger, cheaper HDD. If transferring the files adds too much time, it isn't worth it. But if you can transfer passively (ex. while you're asleep) this could be a real boon. Storage bandwidth matters more to editors than to gamers (with our load times).
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
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  6. 90 50

    90 50 Black Belt

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    Interesting thanks,

    I’m using light works which is pro editing software, used for big name movies etc. so that might be making a difference.

    For storage I would get a small ssd, I have a drive reader as it is I stick hard drives into for back up storage. That’s why I only got a 256ssd instead of a bigger one Inthe laptop.

    So the local gaming machine I saw with the 1070 gpu for cheap with old processor could have saved me some money by slapping a new cpu and ram in I believe.

    I also want to do some capture from console games too for fun, Xbox etc
     
  7. Cygnus A

    Cygnus A Purple Belt

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    I understand that. I've been building PCs for almost 30 years.
     
  8. Ladder Master

    Ladder Master Brown Belt

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    Question for computer gurus.

    My desktop PC keeps typing the letters VF by itself.
    I have tried the following

    Changed to different keyboard.
    Scanned the computer using Bitdefender, quick and full scans. found nothing.
    Scanned with Malware bytes found nothing.
    Windows is updated.

    What could be the issue?

    It will also wake up right after I put it in sleep mode.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  9. Woldog

    Woldog Boxer

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    Mate I know people who have been building PC's since the 1980's and they don't know shit about gaming computers. Just because you know how to build a computer (Which a trained monkey could do nowdays) doesn't make you any smarter than anyone else.
     
  10. Madmick

    Madmick Scholar of Taghaza Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Cyg knows his shit, not a fight you want.

    No, he's speaking to the fact that your assessment is feeble. In 2012, the decision was a matter of cores: 8x lower-performance AMD cores vs. 4x higher-performance Intel cores. For gaming, the latter strategy won impressively in the short term. It lost the long-term fight, but that didn't matter. This fundamental divide in strategy is still there, but greatly diminished, and the reason was Ryzen itself. The Intel 8th Gen was released unexpectedly early by a wide margin, and it was obvious to everyone this was their response to Ryzen, so don't expect another counterpunch like that from Intel. We already got it.

    Now it is 6- core & 8-core Ryzen processors vs. 4-core & 6-core Intel processors.

    Additionally, more cores is finally starting to pay off because of the mobile gaming world, ironically, due to developers' renewed sense of urgency in getting more out of the metal because of the proliferation of devices running on the cheaper, higher-core processors. There is diminishing returns on this as described by Amdahl's Law, but at least they're making a more concerted effort to parallelize as much tasking as they can.

    The reason is they simply must. It's inevitable for progress. There is only so much water you can squeeze from a stone. Colloquially many have long referred to this as the "5GHz Wall". The original race to 3GHz eventually ran into this wall. They can pass that, but effectively, that wall still exists. Look at how far Turbo Modes have come on the stock Intel processors. They essentially overclock themselves, but only when it makes sense, yet none of them overclock to 5GHz or above. Enthusiasts who want to meaningful surpass that use LN2. That Turbo is showing you where Intel architecture is comfortable without these cost-ineffective cooling solutions. 5.5GHz is still the highest frequency ever for a production processor sold at stock. The world record frequency ever achieved is 8.805GHz. The ruling principle we are approaching, here, is that light only travels so fast, and the faster you let it run, the more heat it is going to generate. As you approach this asymptote, the cost for incremental improvements becomes enormous, and you are limited by the physical laws of the universe.
    https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/122050/what-limits-cpu-speed
    [​IMG]

    While it's clear that Intel was essentially hoarding its architectural advantage on stock cooling, releasing only enough to beat AMD, but keeping some of it in reserve, obfuscated, the 8th Gen revealed to us again where they sit.

    I do interpret the spirit of your comment. Your fear is that Intel might decide in the 9th Gen to shift again and sell an 8-core i7 in the same $300-$350 MSRP range that the Coffee Lake i7s currently inhabit. I suppose that's a possibility, but Ryzen isn't scared. If you want to get an idea of that worst case scenario you should look at the i7-7820X vs. R7-2700X overclocked.
    UserBenchmark: AMD Ryzen 7 2700X vs Intel Core i7-7820X


    There's a reason that processor was released at $599 and already sits at $460. A year ago, before Coffee Lake, any Intel 8+ core processor of that class was going for $850 or more. Your fear is that they release this processor with the i7-8700K MSRP.

    No risk with Ryzen, indeed.
     
  11. Woldog

    Woldog Boxer

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    There is one risk that could be quite large though, its what games will optimize for the Ryzen. Historically many games are optimized for Intel and Nvidia over AMD, that has changed somewhat over the last two years with games like Hitman and Total War Warhammer 1 & 2 being better optimized to utilize an AMD CPU and an AMD GPU.
    Intel aren't stupid and they can see that they are losing their stranglehold on the industry the Intel 8th gen cpu's had a hard launch compared to other generations, they fell right into the midst of Spectre and Meltdown. Not a great time for Intel to drop the ball, the 8600k is a mess of a CPU, seems to have lost the silicon lottery worse than the 7700k did (I'm fairly certain my 7700k is possibly the worst 7700k ever made it runs hot even with the Noctua and fans working running to optimize the airflow circuit... seriously it has spikes up to 80deg still (down from 99)).
    AMD has made promises in the past but this time they aren't making the call the community is backing Ryzen for once, and I for one would be happy for AMD to succeed the question is whether mainstream gaming will optimize for Ryzen over Intel. We are almost at the point where the 7700k's hyperthreading is no longer pointless in games. I don't know how well Ryzen's threading works or if it even has it as traditionally AMD has been stuck a generation or two behind Intel technology wise.

    As for my comments about building computers for 30 years not meaning a damn thing, I'll still stand by it. My uncle hasn't had to work for 30 years because of software he developed at the start of the boom, but he continued to build computers the man doesn't know a damn thing about what a good gaming computer would be made of. My other uncle has been building and working on computers for about the same amount of time, he built my first 4 computers in the 90's and early 2000's. He has a grasp of what a good gaming computer would need but he wouldn't really be able to tell me the best parts.
    I myself have been building computers since I was 15 (I'm 27 now) and I understand what makes a good gaming computer, but I wouldn't call myself an expert because if I was an expert I wouldn't keep upgrading my computer every damn week.

    Also the Asus PCE-AC88 I have managed to get it to maintain an average signal of 95% over a 6 hour test. I upgraded my router to a dual band TP-Link ac1350 Archer c60 with 4 antennas and it has made the world of difference for connection strength and stability. It is only marginally slower than an Ethernet connection (Average Ethernet was 101mbps, where as the AC88 is 99mbps) which unfortunately is about as fast as Australian internet can go at this point in time. I'm more than happy with achieving a solid 95% connection however.

    Edit: Also I hope that Intel releases a good, yet cheap CPU next because I will either upgrade my mobo and cpu to that, or I'll make the switch to AMD.
     
  12. Cygnus A

    Cygnus A Purple Belt

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    I didnt expand on my original comment because I didnt care to at the time. As Madmick said, I know my shit. Ive been building gaming specific computers for a very long time. It is a hobby of mine and something I am very passionate about. Last year I was asked by a multi billion dollar corporation to optimize their hardware for a very specific need. I wrote up several white papers and developed custom benchmark tools to locate the choke points in their systems. They've restructured their entire computing system rollout for the next 3 years based on my findings and recommendations. I saved them money while improving performance across the board. I know what makes hardware tick at the very fundamental level.

    There is nothing Intel could drop within the next year that would cause Ryzen to die off or even be a risky purchase now. Intel has shown their hand and it was not a good one. They are panicked and it is obvious. Even if they somehow released some next generation platform within the year, it will be 2-4 years after that before game devs can even begin to take advantage of it.
     
  13. Woldog

    Woldog Boxer

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    Big noting aside. There is several ways they could drop something that could cause Ryzen to die quite easily. Intel are quite secretive about their technology advance for good reason. They want to stay ahead so right now they would be directing everything to making Ryzen completely outdated. Technology advances can happen in a matter of months and take less than a year for full production. As for you knowing your shit, it doesn't matter to me. You could or you couldn't personally I couldn't careless. 70% of gamers don't upgrade their CPU's and GPU's because they need to. They upgrade them because they want to show off their e-peen on forums and to tell everyone that they've got the best available. All intel would need to do to kill Ryzen off would be to drop the prices on their top CPU's to affordable prices and most gamers would go with that to "Future proof" As for future proofing I think it's a load of shit personally, I upgrade things on my computer because I can and because costs don't really bother me. I've been tossing up buying the top Intel CPU's but at this point I'm waiting for the price to drop so I don't end up buying another expensive piece only for a better one to come out a few months later.
    The current 8 series CPU's have been shown to beat the Ryzen in almost all gaming scenarios.

    Gamers who build computers are like kids in a candy shop. Gamers with an expendable income like myself are retards who can just buy whatever they want for no real reason other than they can and gamers who want to play but can't afford the top tier generally go with AMD or i5's. AMD Ryzen is a great CPU and I'm tossing up whether I'd swap to AMD again or stick with intel (whos 7700k processor has been a nightmare in the Australian summer). Either way I'd have to shoulder the cost of a new CPU and motherboard.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  14. jefferz

    jefferz Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    I put together my Ryzen 7 1700 system for testing this morning.
    So far I've hit 3.8ghz at 1.3v at 82 degrees on the stock Wraith Spire cooler. Any higher and the temps were getting too high for comfort.
     
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  15. Woldog

    Woldog Boxer

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    Do they make a Noctua for the 1700? I mean my 7700k can spike to 82degrees at 4.6ghz, but it sit around 56 degrees while gaming and around 60 when load testing. Is there a program that actually gives you an average temp over time? I've tried HWMonitor which just gives you a max and min, and Speccy which gives you an average but the average is only current temp average over the cores. I'd much prefer something that I could turn on and game for a few hours to accurately measure the average temp over that time.
     
  16. jefferz

    jefferz Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    Almost every cooler is interchangeable between Intel and Ryzen cpu's.
    When not stress testing, I just use NZXT's cam software. I have it set to warn when something gets over 80 degrees, that's my comfort threshold.
     
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  17. 90 50

    90 50 Black Belt

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    Since I’m new to this , I might have some things confused so straighten that out where necessary, but here is what I find interesting.

    Ryzen cpu’s Are aimed at the gaming community correct? And many refer to them as “gaming” cpu’s

    Intel i7 has better benchmarks when in gaming scenarios, compared to ryzen 7, but flip the script and run non gaming benchmarks like in “normal computing functions “ like running multiple processes at once and a ryzen 7 outshines i7, which Intel is in the mainstream computing market

    So as I understand it, from the little research I’ve done is,
    Ryzen gaming cpu, is better for the computing world outside of gaming
    Intel mainstream cpu, is better for gaming but behind in other computing scenarios

    From my findings I’m thinking a ryzen 5 or 7 would fit the bill for what I need. But it’s still a little cloudy
     
  18. Madmick

    Madmick Scholar of Taghaza Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I know you asked Wol, but I'm on, and I can field this.

    Yes, this is generally accurate, but let's be clear about something. Those "non-gaming tasks" refer to a very specific type of software that makes use of full parallelization. We're chiefly talking about editing tasks and other professional software, or stuff like streaming. For general computing tasks, everyday stuff like browsing, word processing, music/video playback, and so forth, the Intels will tend to dominate just as they do in gaming because those are single-thread tasks, and rarely intensive across the whole CPU.

    Also, FYI, while the above generality remains true for the Ryzen 5 processors versus the latest 8th gen Intel i5 processors, the Ryzen 7 processors have routine sales, which are less common with Intel processors, and with bigger price reductions, especially on CPU + MoBo combinations lately, if you watch the Slickdeals PC component section (or Reddit's /buildapc sales), and so are often dropping into the same price range as the flagship i5-8600K. So if you're really interested in editing/streaming capabilities, then it's more like an i5 vs. a Ryzen 7. This is sort of how the options end up
    • i5-8400 vs. R5-1600 or R5-2600
    • i5-8600k vs. R7-1700 or R7-1700X
    • i7-8700 vs. R7-2700, R7-1800X, or R7-2700X
    • i7-8700K (vs. R7-1800X or R7-2700X)
    • i7-7820X
    Note: The i7-8086K falls in a price class between the 8700K and 7820X right now, but it's virtually identical to the i7-8700k in performance, and so it's a godawful value/buy at the moment

    Beyond that price point gamers and gaming-first hybrid users aren't interested.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  19. 90 50

    90 50 Black Belt

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    Editing tasks and proffesional softwares are my main concerns.

    And budget minded as well, as long as they perform decently for what I’m doing.

    I’ve been comparing cpu’s In the 200ish price point on Newegg and trying to decide what’s the best option there, if there is one that can handle what I need.

    Things like running full color correction on 4K video, while running other editing tasks at the same time.
     
  20. Woldog

    Woldog Boxer

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    What Mick said is pretty much it. My biggest gripe with Ryzen fan boys is that AMD have still followed the mantra they've had for far to long "More cores = better" in theory its a logical idea, but when it comes down to gaming very few games can use more than 2 - 4 cores and a lot of the time games simply use a single core and some games will cycle the core around to spread the use. Ryzen to me came out at the wrong time, a common problem AMD has faced. They bring out a CPU with a huge amount of cores but when a single core is used its generally far weaker than an Intel 6700k, 7700k or 8800k running on a single core. If games were able to utilize 8,16,32,400 cores well then there would be no doubt in my mind Ryzen would be the best gaming CPU on the market today. But at this point in time very few games can use multiple cores or hyperthreading.

    Right now Ryzen is the best workstation core around. Intel for now retains the gaming crown but AMD is coming for them and by the looks of things they will be here soon.
     
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