SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 84 Discussion - Heathers

[europe1]

FORESHADOWING!!!

* Daniel Waters originally wanted Stanley Kubrick to direct, citing that "He's the only one that can get away with a 3 hour movie."

Slater with the Kubrick Stare!

* Christian Slater has stated that his performance was heavily inspired by Jack Nicholson. He claims that he wrote a letter to Nicholson asking him to watch the film but did not receive an answer.

I didn't get much of a Nicholson impression from Slater. I'm not sure who he reminds me of actually. There is this nasal quality to the way he talks and pronounces things.

For example, when Veronica is talking with her parents outside, she has some pate, tells her father he is an idiot, then says I gotta motor if I'm going to make it to that party. Later in the film she has some pate, tells her father he is an idiot for smoking, and then says she has to motor.

We also see reoccurring themes like when one Heather dies, another takes her place and even the nerd in the cafeteria spews milk through his nose 2 times.

I think that is done to emphazise the monotony of Veronica's world -- as well as it being self-perpetuating (one Heather replacing the next).

Another thing I noticed during this viewing was the cliffs notes on Heather's coffee table that she fell on when she died. It was Cliff's Notes for a novel called The Bell Jar.

I've time stamped it here but the copy is not clear enough to read it. You can see two items on the table at 3:37.

So... Heather number one had a lot more depth than people gave her credit for?

it seems that she really did believe that she was using magic bullets.

That was a bit weird. Firstly, the very concept of a tranquilizer-bullet that causes blood is quite outlandish to begin with. I suppose we are to intone that Veronica is so unfamiliar with firearms that she would belive that in the first place. Also, it's a weird lie from Slater. What if they don't die instantaniously? His cover would be blown right there and then.

Last night I read some comments on MovieChat about the film, and people were talking about how Veronica didn't deserve to end up as a hero in the film, because she was just as psychopathic as JD. I don't agree that this was the case, and she does have an arc in the film. By the end she's learned the error of her ways.

Yeah her being a psychopath like JD is just hogwash. There is a bit of disparity in just how mellow she seems towards the deaths (even after learning that they were not accedental). However, the very film is about her rejecting the sort of nilisistic psychopathy that JD represents -- acting more humanistic at the films end.

"Kurt and Ram killed themselves in a repressed homosexual suicide pact!"

That's one of those lines that I want to use some day.

I think that's how I'll explain the dissaperance of the next two members that'll quit the Movie Club.

"I love my dead gay son!" That shit is hilarious, as is the image of the two dudes in their caskets in football attire.

That was really funny. I think the funniest part though was when the cops found the miniral water and went like "yep, gay suicides."

And then there's the "I like to suck big dicks" scene. And that leads me into a discussion of whether or not this movie would've even been made today. With the modern outcry over homophobia, I'm just not sure it would.

Eh, you still find gay jokes in modern cinema.

And it's not like those two guys were supposed to be sympathetic. They were the villians after all. It's different from one of those comedy films where it's the protagonists who engage in the "eww, gay," scenes

. While much of the movie was pretty straightforward in terms of its look

Mostly I thought about how they used this style of center-framing in the Master shoots.

One character dominating the middle and other characters at their flanks. The film used it at several points to establish their master shoots. I'm sure this technique has a name I just can't recall what it is.

terms of its look

While most of framing was fairly unflashy -- they design was not. Those are some gaudy, techno-color clothing.

(Though admittedly, it bothers the shit out of me that she's not centered.)

What do you mean? I'm not all-to-familiar with framing termonology. Is it that her face isn't centered? I actually tend to like that kind of framing. It brings more attention to the body than the face.

but also because all the school shootings might make many people look askance at it

Plenty of people did that back in the day as well -- so it was a hindrance back then as well.

Feels like old times. I can't remember the last time you put that much into one of your write-ups.

Well -- since I can only post on Saturdays these days -- most of the things I've talked about saying have already been said by other posters. And I feel it's a bit tedious to just repeat what others have said. So I'll end up having a lot less to write.

But with the_muntjac incapicitated I'll have to do a lot more heavy lifting

One thing I never fully understood was exactly WHY she wanted to hang with the cool kids, and why she kept insisting even as it was making her miserable. I mean, from the moment that we're dropped into the film she is already bitching about the Heathers and talking about how she wishes Heather #1 would die . . . but she keeps playing the game. Instead of just walking away, she keeps on doing what she thinks she needs to do to become one of the group.

Well she's still a kid. Kids change a lot through the years. Especially when it comes to confidence. A lot of kids give up a lot to be popular -- only to find said populairty tedious and unfufilling later in life.

Croquet

How loaded must your parents be to have a croquet court set up in the backyard? Surrounded by classical statues and shit?

but most religious people do and yet even religious people almost always seem determined to cling to this life to the bitter end.

Well, there is a difference between believing in Heaven and following the logical conclusions of said belief. They have faith in that they'll end up in heaven, but not enough faith so that it overpowers the concerns they have in the here and now.

And you of course could make the argument that not everyone believes in heaven, and okay sure, but most religious people do and yet even religious people almost always seem determined to cling to this life to the bitter end. It doesn't make a ton of sense, and imagine if somehow we actually proved that heaven existed and that everyone gets to go there--that really would cast a different shadow upon acts like suicide and murder.

All this is to say that I felt like JD's behavior represents a belief in heaven taken to its furthest logical conclusion, which is not something I've ever actually seen a movie deal with before. It's very weird that this was suddenly thrown into the plot though, because there had been no indication before that that JD held any serious religious or spiritual beliefs.

Well, from a theological perspective, it is abundantly clear in Christian dogma that life is meant to be lived. You're supposed to go through life in grace. If you're trying to "game" the situation that way -- being all meta about it -- then you're kind of missing the point, that life is meant to be lived.

The end-goal of life isn't about going to heaven (or sending other people there) -- it's about living a good, just life. Shit that's like the entire point of the Book of Job. It is not correct to be good just because God will reward you -- you are supposed to be good because being good is a virtue in-and-of-itself.

 

[Guestx]

So... Heather number one had a lot more depth than people gave her credit for?

Hmm, one might say it says something that she had the Cliff's Notes instead of the actual book.

That was a bit weird. Firstly, the very concept of a tranquilizer-bullet that causes blood is quite outlandish to begin with. I suppose we are to intone that Veronica is so unfamiliar with firearms that she would belive that in the first place. Also, it's a weird lie from Slater. What if they don't die instantaniously? His cover would be blown right there and then.

Yeah, it wasn't really believable. I mean, you would have to be a really, really dumb bitch to actually believe that.

But it seemed that she really did believe it, so I retreated into suspension of disbelief.

That's one of those lines that I want to use some day.

I think that's how I'll explain the dissaperance of the next two members that'll quit the Movie Club.

That's hilarious.

It's different from one of those comedy films where it's the protagonists who engage in the "eww, gay," scenes.

You know, I can't even remember the last time I saw a movie like that, though I did recently read the CHiPs movie from this year got criticized for it.

I think that kind of humor is very rare now, though.

What do you mean? I'm not all-to-familiar with framing termonology. Is it that her face isn't centered? I actually tend to like that kind of framing. It brings more attention to the body than the face.

I'm saying centered with the background, not centered in the frame.

If you look at the background then you can clearly see the architectural lines of the church and she's ALMOST centered between those center-most lines but not quite. And it bothers me.

Well -- since I can only post on Saturdays these days -- most of the things I've talked about saying have already been said by other posters. And I feel it's a bit tedious to just repeat what others have said. So I'll end up having a lot less to write.

So why is it only Saturday? Are you just such a popular guy that as soon as you get off work you have the bros and bitches waiting to hang out? You never just go home to spend a quiet Thursday indoors?

Well, from a theological perspective, it is abundantly clear in Christian dogma that life is meant to be lived. You're supposed to go through life in grace. If you're trying to "game" the situation that way -- being all meta about it -- then you're kind of missing the point, that life is meant to be lived.

The end-goal of life isn't about going to heaven (or sending other people there) -- it's about living a good, just life. Shit that's like the entire point of the Book of Job. It is not correct to be good just because God will reward you -- you are supposed to be good because being good is a virtue in-and-of-itself.

Yes, well I'm not really talking about a reward. I'm speaking logically, that it's better to be in a better place than a worse place.

You're right that Christianity says that life is meant to be lived, but the thing is, even as a Christian I questioned the logic there. I would ask people why they weren't ready to die and go to heaven, and they'd always say something like, "Well because there are things I'm still wanting to do here." And I always felt like that sounded like someone who was born into some shithole being content to just stay in that shithole, even though there was a much better, cooler, more enjoyable place awaiting them.

I'll also point out that not every person who believes in an afterlife is Christian. In fact, some people aren't affiliated with any religion at all. I've done a lot of reading on near-death experiences and a lot of those people now believe we go onto something positive after this world, but they don't all become religious in the traditional sense.

 

[Teppodama]

Absolutely loved this film. Have watched it more times than I can honestly count. Own it in fact.

 

[MusterX]

So... Heather number one had a lot more depth than people gave her credit for?

No not necessarily.

The Bell Jar's protagonist descends into mental illness. The author of The Bell Jar committed suicide a month after it was published. When JD sees the Cliff's Note's for the Bell Jar he tells Veronica to write a suicide note. If anything it indicates that JD is the one that has more depth. He knew that the author committed suicide.

 

[europe1]

Hmm, one might say it says something that she had the Cliff's Notes instead of the actual book.

*Google's Cliff's Notes*

Oh so that's what that means!

So why is it only Saturday? Are you just such a popular guy that as soon as you get off work you have the bros and bitches waiting to hang out?

I'm the life of the party.

You never just go home to spend a quiet Thursday indoors?

I have about an hour of freetime on Thursdays. Rather spend that time on something more leisurely than typing and trying to articulate myself.

 

[jasonrest29]

My score is primarily due to my actual entertainment level while watching the film. I enjoyed it, but not really in a "Holy shit this is a good fucking movie!" kind of way.

And I found myself reaching for my phone in the last 30 minutes.

I love the honesty. Id have to agree here.
Id say 7/10 and thats a generous rating.

The absurdity woke me up in a good way.

 

[Guestx]

I love the honesty. Id have to agree here.
Id say 7/10 and thats a generous rating.

The absurdity woke me up in a good way.

Well tell us more.

Sounds like you didn't really get into it.

 

[jasonrest29]

Thought you were someone who would try to apply more objective criteria.

Im genuinely interested to know what sort of objective criteria you use to rate movies??

 

[jasonrest29]

Well tell us more.

Sounds like you didn't really get into it.

No, I did once slater showed up. but like you said it wasn't something that grabbed me.
I started it friday night but fell asleep on it, finished it today.
When it started just seemed like a clueless' or mean girls kinda thing. but when slater showed up and
people started dying, im like ok, whats going on here. It just kinda woke me up.

I am however a fan of dark humor so once things started to take a turn, I found it funny.
Im not sure this movie would pass in our climate today, with school shootings and all.
I found that interesting, it was a time when you could joke about those things.
and I love the aggression shared with slater and the dad.
yeah slater saved this movie for me.


PS. I love my dead gay son. I get it now.

 

[Guestx]

When it started just seemed like a clueless' or mean girls kinda thing.

Mean Girls was a great movie, though. I love that film.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Im genuinely interested to know what sort of objective criteria you use to rate movies??

Well, of course there's no math equations involved. Just saying you can analyze the various aspects and compare their effectiveness to cinema at large. For example.

• Plot complexity and lack of plot holes
• Acting
• Cinematography
• Soundtrack
• Set design
• Originality

 

[MusterX]

*Google's Cliff's Notes*

Oh so that's what that means!



I'm the life of the party.



I have about an hour of freetime on Thursdays. Rather spend that time on something more leisurely than typing and trying to articulate myself.

Cliff's notes are the bane of school teachers everywhere. It allows you to know everything about the book without actually reading the book.

Also, one of the best lines of Heather's is, "I put a Norwegian in the boiler room before I blew it up."

 

[MusterX]

Well, of course there's no math equations involved. Just saying you can analyze the various aspects and compare their effectiveness to cinema at large. For example.

• Plot complexity and lack of plot holes
• Acting
• Cinematography
• Soundtrack
• Set design
• Originality

Yea, there are all the technical aspects of film making that can be graded but sometimes its just a matter of how does the film make you feel, are you compelled to watch the film? For example, the SMC watched the Tom Cruise movie, The Edge of Tomorrow, it isn't a technical marvel of cinematic mastery but I was compelled to watch it, all the way through.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I want a .gif of the funeral scene where one of the jocks says "Jesus God in heaven, uh, why did you kill such hot snatch?" so I can post it in threads about the death of an attractive female.

When I'm lovin' on my pup in the middle here, my wife has become accustomed to hearing me exclaim "I love my gay white son".

Love the last 45 seconds of this scene. Brilliant stuff.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Yea, there are all the technical aspects of film making that can be graded but sometimes its just a matter of how does the film make you feel, are you compelled to watch the film? For example, the SMC watched the Tom Cruise movie, The Edge of Tomorrow, it isn't a technical marvel of cinematic mastery but I was compelled to watch it, all the way through.

Yeah man. I thought I agreed with entertainment value being a factor. But to clarify, I agree.

For example, not sure how anyone is entertained by There Will Be Blood unless they focus on the technical aspects. That film was long and depressing, but well-made. Not looking to argue its merits here. Just addressing your point.

 

[MusterX]

Yeah man. I thought I agreed with entertainment value being a factor. But to clarify, I agree.

For example, not sure how anyone is entertained by There Will Be Blood unless they focus on the technical aspects. That film was long and depressing, but well-made. Not looking to argue its merits here. Just addressing your point.

For sure on There Will Be Blood. It can be a moderately difficult watch, a classic "well made story." Conversely, during the same year, 2007, No Country For Old Men virtually demanded that you view it.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

For sure on There Will Be Blood. It can be a moderately difficult watch, a classic "well made story." Conversely, during the same year, 2007, No Country For Old Men virtually demanded that you view it.

Surely a far more "entertaining" movie. Unraveled for me at the end though. Seemed to meander once Brolin got killed. I'm also a huge critic of the protagonist dying off-screen like that. Knocks it down a grade or two just for that.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

@shadow_priest_x

In regards to your criticism of Veronica believing in "magic bullets", I see it as another instance of absurdity. Like how JD lights a cig off her burnt hand. Speaking of that, it's part of another example of the film's use of repetition that @MusterX pointed out. At the end she has her cig lit by JD's blown-up body.

 

[jasonrest29]

Well, of course there's no math equations involved. Just saying you can analyze the various aspects and compare their effectiveness to cinema at large. For example.

• Plot complexity and lack of plot holes
• Acting
• Cinematography
• Soundtrack
• Set design
• Originality

Maybe, I use these subconsciously, im not sure. I know for sure these are always make or breaks for me.
Im such a movie lover, that I think my mind is constantly weighing the following.

writing. which would include your first point
acting.
consistency.
originality.
character development.

but the reason why I cant really rate movies objectively, is cuz sometimes there are movies that completely miss most if not all of these, but still somehow work. and you see this when "professional movie critics" give a movie a horrible rating. and the audience absolutely loves it. something to be said for that. Im trying to think of a good example of this.

Yeah man. I thought I agreed with entertainment value being a factor. But to clarify, I agree.

For example, not sure how anyone is entertained by There Will Be Blood unless they focus on the technical aspects. That film was long and depressing, but well-made. Not looking to argue its merits here. Just addressing your point.

There will be blood is a prime example of this. its not gonna go do well with the low brow crowd. but for those who can appreciate unblievable acting and writing. its a classic. (by the way daniel day lewis my fav. actor)
I actually rewatched that movie immediately.

 

[MusterX]

@shadow_priest_x

In regards to your criticism of Veronica believing in "magic bullets", I see it as another instance of absurdity. Like how JD lights a cig off her burnt hand. Speaking of that, it's part of another example of the film's use of repetition that @MusterX pointed out. At the end she has her cig lit by JD's blown-up body.

Good one. I failed to notice that repeat. The film does seem to like to use a theme of repetitiveness. I'm not exactly sure what it means but its definitely there.