SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 84 Discussion - Heathers

[Guestx]

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Here's a quick list of all movies watched by the SMC. Or if you prefer, here's a more detailed examination.


@Cubo de Sangre is up this week with his "high school and murder" theme, and we'll be delving into a movie that took two tries to actually get voted in.

Our Director

Michael Lehmann's first job in the film industry was answering phones at Francis Ford Coppola's American Zoetrope film company. Later he supervised cameras on films that included 1983's The Outsiders. Lehmann attended film school at the USC School of Cinematic Arts and graduated in 1985. While at USC he made a student film, Beaver Gets a Boner, the title of which he believes helped get the attention of film executives who would later hire him.

Lehmann is most known for directing the black comedy, Heathers. He also directed 40 Days and 40 Nights, The Truth About Cats & Dogs, Hudson Hawk, Meet the Applegates, Airheads and Because I Said So.

Lehmann directed his first television commercial via the Leo Burnett Company in June 1996 for McDonald's. Lehmann also directs for television, and has worked on the short lived HBO comedy series The Comeback and NBC's The West Wing. Lehmann has guest directed on The Larry Sanders Show, Watching Ellie and Century City. Recently, Lehmann has directed episodes of HBO dramas, Big Love and True Blood, as well as Showtime's Californication, the Amazon.com series Betas, and FX's American Horror Story and Snowfall.

Lehmann claimed he would never make a sequel to Heathers. He claimed Winona Ryder wanted to do Heathers set in Washington, D.C., but he saw no potential for the project.

Our Stars​

Winona Ryder: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000213/

Christian Slater: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000225

Film Overview and YouTube Videos​

Premise: In order to get out of the snobby clique that is destroying her good-girl reputation, an intelligent teen teams up with a dark sociopath in a plot to kill the cool kids.

Budget: $2 million
Box Office: $1.1 million

​

Trivia
(courtesy of IMDB)​

* Two stars died young, in ways which were eerily prophesied by the script. Jeremy Applegate, whose character prays he will never commit suicide, shot himself on March 23, 2000. Kim Walker, whose character asks "Did you have a brain tumor for breakfast?", died of a brain tumor on March 6, 2001.

* Christian Slater has stated that his performance was heavily inspired by Jack Nicholson. He claims that he wrote a letter to Nicholson asking him to watch the film but did not receive an answer.

* Brad Pitt auditioned for the role of J.D. He was rejected because he was considered "too nice."

* This is considered one of the most controversial movies ever made, certainly one of the most controversial about the high school experience. When it was released, detractors thought it was making fun of suicide. Now it's controversial because of its uncomfortable similarity to so many school shootings.

* The role of Heather McNamara was originally offered to 17-year-old Heather Graham. Heather's parents refused to let her take the role because of the dark subject matter.

* Originally, the book that suicidal students supposedly underline "meaningful" passages from was "The Catcher in the Rye". The producers could not get permission from J.D. Salinger to use the book. It was changed to "Moby Dick" because Herman Melville's works are in the public domain.

* The bedrooms of Heather MacNamara and Veronica were built in the gym of the school they used in the film.

* Shannen Doherty had problems saying the profanities in the script because of her conservative upbringing. She couldn't keep a straight face. As a result, she smirks when she says, "Veronica, why are you pulling my dick?"

* Christian Slater and Winona Ryder dated during the filming and promotion of this film.

* Filmed in 32 days in July and August 1988.

* The same week Winona Ryder received the script, a student from her high school committed suicide, which only inspired her more to do the film.

* Daniel Waters originally wanted Stanley Kubrick to direct, citing that "He's the only one that can get away with a 3 hour movie."

* Winona Ryder's agent begged her not to be in the movie, stating her "career would be over."

* Heather Duke's kitchen in the dream sequence is the same kitchen used for Heather Chandler's house, with different colors and lighting.

* The closeups of Veronica's legs were filmed with a body double.

* The high school is named "Westerburg High". Winona Ryder's favorite band at the time was The Replacements, whose lead singer is named Paul Westerberg. Another reference to the band occurs when J.D. says "Color me impressed", which is the title of a song from The Replacements' album "Hootenanny".

* With its shared themes of vicious girl cliques and murderous outcasts getting revenge, the film was described by many critics as an 80s version of Carrie (1976).

* Some reviewers have discussed similarities between this film and Massacre at Central High (1976). Daniel Waters has stated that he had not seen the film at the time he wrote the script, but that he had read a review of it in Danny Peary's book Cult Movies, and that the earlier film may have been "rattling around somewhere in my subconscious".

* It was Tori Spelling, who had seen Shannen Doherty in this film, who recommended to her father Aaron Spelling that Shannen be cast in his new show about high school Beverly Hills, 90210 (1990).

* "Hot Probs", the radio call-in show featured in the movie, is a version of the nationally-distributed KROQ radio show "Loveline". The DJ in the movie is James 'Poorman' Trenton, the creator and original host of "Loveline".

* "Teenage Suicide (Don't Do It)" which is performed by the fictitious band Big Fun in the movie is actually a spoof of a real song which was released in 1980 call "Don't Try Suicide" by Queen.

* Renee Estevez, who plays Betty Finn in this movie, Veronica's former friend before she ditches them for the Heathers, is Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen's sister, and Martin Sheen's daughter.

* Lisanne Falk lied about her age to get cast. She claimed to be 18 years old at the time of filming. In reality, she was 23.

* In the theatrical trailer, Shannen Doherty's name was spelled "Shannon Dougherty".

* Several characters sardonically use the phrase "Oh, the humanity." This phrase was first coined by the American radio reporter Herbert O. Morrison during his May 6, 1937, on-the-spot description of the explosion of the Hindenburg in New Jersey.

* Winona Ryder has said she was motivated to make this movie because of her strong feelings about girl cliques, the pervasive bullying that goes on in high schools and the "hellishness" of the high school experience. This is interesting when you consider that Winona Ryder spent most of her high school experience on movie sets and not in actual high schools.

* Winona Ryder claims that this is her favorite movie. She also says that she gets asked about Heathers 2 more than anything else, although a sequel seems unlikely. The filmmakers have suggested that they would like to do the project. One of the plot lines includes JD being a CIA agent before his death. The CIA would then blackmail Veronica and the story would end with Veronica assassinating the President.

Members: @shadow_priest_x @europe1 @jeicex @MusterX @Coolthulu @Scott Parker 27 @the muntjac @Caveat @sleepwalk @Cubo de Sangre @sickc0d3r @jasonrest29

 

[MusterX]

Young Winona and Christian, a great pairing for this film and I don't think two other actors would have had the same effect. One of the things I noticed about this film is the reoccurring themes and conversations that take place. For example, when Veronica is talking with her parents outside, she has some pate, tells her father he is an idiot, then says I gotta motor if I'm going to make it to that party. Later in the film she has some pate, tells her father he is an idiot for smoking, and then says she has to motor.

We also see reoccurring themes like when one Heather dies, another takes her place and even the nerd in the cafeteria spews milk through his nose 2 times.

This is a sharp contrast to the chaos we see in J.D.'s family where his dad is a psychopath and so is he. J.D., Jason Dean, also seems to be a direct reference to James Dean who was a rebel without a cause.

Another thing I noticed during this viewing was the cliffs notes on Heather's coffee table that she fell on when she died. It was Cliff's Notes for a novel called The Bell Jar.

I've time stamped it here but the copy is not clear enough to read it. You can see two items on the table at 3:37.



The larger INFO magazine says "The downfall of the teen" and the Cliff's Notes is for The Bell Jar. The Bell Jar's protagonist descends into mental illness and the woman that wrote the novel, Sylvia Plath, committed suicide a month after it was published. When J.D. sees the Cliff's Notes on the table he starts talking about making a suicide note.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

While the use of Catcher in the Rye would have been more near and dear to my heart, the use of Moby Dick added tot he wonderful amount of absurdity.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Wasnt Shannon Doherty in this movie too?

Also I only saw bits and pieces. Yet it is a cult classic. What is this about?

 

[Scott Parker 27]

Great flick 9/10. This movie was a fun and unpredictable ride. I thought Christian Slater, although he plays the same role in every move, was a perfect fit. Dougherty came off as her normal bitchy self, I think that is her real personality. I loved when they left the dudes out in the field to puke on themselves when they were trying to get laid. It reminded me of growing up in a small town and just how boring it could be. Good pick!

 

[Guestx]

I saw Heathers a little while back but I must have been quite drunk--as is often the case when I watch TV--because this was basically like watching it for the first time. I remember virtually nothing about the movie.

Having now rewatched it, I can saw that I enjoyed it, and man this is a weird movie. Definitely a dark comedy.

I'm not entirely sure how to approach this for whatever reason, so I think I'll hit a few individual points.


1. The Story

It's interesting to note that, while she does act calloused in some cases after the fact, Veronica never actually intends to kill anybody. When the first Heather goes down, she accidentally grabbed the wrong cup and JD failed to correct her. When the dead gay sons get killed, it seems that she really did believe that she was using magic bullets. She didn't have anything to do with the second Heathers death. And while she did shoot at JD--rightfully so--he ultimately kills himself, going out in a blaze of glory.

Last night I read some comments on MovieChat about the film, and people were talking about how Veronica didn't deserve to end up as a hero in the film, because she was just as psychopathic as JD. I don't agree that this was the case, and she does have an arc in the film. By the end she's learned the error of her ways.


2. Funny Stuff

This movie is kind of hilarious. There are truly some quotable lines in this thing and I can't remember the last time I heard someone say, "Fuck me with a chainsaw." Did that start with this movie? Probably.

One of the very few scenes from the film was the funeral where the dad blurts out, "I love my dead gay son!" That shit is hilarious, as is the image of the two dudes in their caskets in football attire. Then, on a related note, you have the line, "Kurt and Ram killed themselves in a repressed homosexual suicide pact!" That was good shit.

And then there's the "I like to suck big dicks" scene. And that leads me into a discussion of whether or not this movie would've even been made today. With the modern outcry over homophobia, I'm just not sure it would.

Lastly, this really should be a common reaction gif and I'm not sure why it's not. Anyway, I made it last night and offer it up. With your help, perhaps it will go viral:

3. Cinematography

I thought there was some cool imagery in this film. While much of the movie was pretty straightforward in terms of its look, there was occasional use of light and color that really impressed and stylized the film.

For instance, take this beautiful shot. Look at the way she has a reddish halo from the fire, surrounded by blue. Just gorgeous.

Or take this cool shot, which is consist in look to the shot above. (Though admittedly, it bothers the shit out of me that she's not centered.)

4. To Sum It Up

All in all, I like this movie. It's an interesting tale that is dark in many ways, but told with just the right amount of levity to keep it entertaining and from becoming too depressing. I've always liked Winona Ryder and have felt like she's an underrated actress. She kind of fell off the map after getting arrested for shoplifting, which is a shame, but I'm glad to see she's made a bit of a comeback with Stranger Things. Hopefully this is the beginning of a career renaissance for her.

And I remember that Christian Slater was just considered the hottest shit back in the day. I idolized him in Gleaming the Cube and I remember being confused when he started to fade from the spotlight around the late 90s/early 00s. He did a good job here.

As I mentioned earlier, it's kind of hard to see this movie being made today. Not just because of the gay humor but also because all the school shootings might make many people look askance at it, saying that violence in high school is not to be taken lightly. I dunno.

I liked it, though. 7.5/10

Good pick @Cubo de Sangre

 

[Guestx]

While the use of Catcher in the Rye would have been more near and dear to my heart, the use of Moby Dick added tot he wonderful amount of absurdity.

I didn't really understand the use of Moby Dick.

Catcher in the Rye would've made sense, but does Moby Dick have some undercurrent of teen angst that I'm unaware of?

 

[Guestx]

I thought Christian Slater, although he plays the same role in every move, was a perfect fit.

I remember thinking back in the day that Christian Slater would go on to have a Brad Pitt type of career. I thought of him as a big star back in the 80s. But I guess really what it was is that he was a big TEEN star. A big teen star who didn't quite make the jump to adult stardom.

 

[MusterX]

I didn't really understand the use of Moby Dick.

Catcher in the Rye would've made sense, but does Moby Dick have some undercurrent of teen angst that I'm unaware of?

Eskimo bro, they were living in a cold and hostile world.

 

[MusterX]

I remember thinking back in the day that Christian Slater would go on to have a Brad Pitt type of career. I thought of him as a big star back in the 80s. But I guess really what it was is that he was a big TEEN star. A big teen star who didn't quite make the jump to adult stardom.

He isn't a superstar but he has done steady work all the way up to present.

 

[Guestx]

He isn't a superstar but he has done steady work all the way up to present.

He has stayed employed, yeah. But I legit lost track of him from about 2000 until he showed up in Mr. Robot.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I liked it, though. 7.5/10

Good pick @Cubo de Sangre

Thanks. Nice review. I think your score is low. I'd call this movie a 10. It's pretty much perfect. Not sure it what more it could do that it set out to do. Sometimes things just magically come together. I think they did here. I get that you're not the poster-child for liking dark movies, but this thing was funny and entertaining all the way through. Memorable lines. Fun, outrageous, audacious characters. Should be at least a 9. Watch it again in a week. You'll love it even more.

I didn't really understand the use of Moby Dick.

Catcher in the Rye would've made sense, but does Moby Dick have some undercurrent of teen angst that I'm unaware of?

Moby dick was just public domain, according to the trivia in the OP. My guess would be that when they couldn't get the most poignant work's rights, they moved to the absurd. That's kinda the movie. Poignancy mixed with absurdity. So Catcher goes one way and Moby Dick goes the other.

 

[Guestx]

Thanks. Nice review. I think your score is low. I'd call this movie a 10. It's pretty much perfect. Not sure it what more it could do that it set out to do. Sometimes things just magically come together. I think they did here. I get that you're not the poster-child for liking dark movies, but this thing was funny and entertaining all the way through. Memorable lines. Fun, outrageous, audacious characters. Should be at least a 9. Watch it again in a week. You'll love it even more.

My score is primarily due to my actual entertainment level while watching the film. I enjoyed it, but not really in a "Holy shit this is a good fucking movie!" kind of way.

And I found myself reaching for my phone in the last 30 minutes.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

My score is primarily due to my actual entertainment level while watching the film. I enjoyed it, but not really in a "Holy shit this is a good fucking movie!" kind of way.

And I found myself reaching for my phone in the last 30 minutes.

Thought you were someone who would try to apply more objective criteria.

 

[Guestx]

Thought you were someone who would try to apply more objective criteria.

I think that movies, more than anything else, are supposed to be entertaining.

You can have the best cinematography, the best acting, the best special effects, the best soundtrack, the best whatever else . . . but if the movie fails to keep you engaged and interested then it's a failure.

Heathers did a PRETTY GOOD job of keeping me invested, but it didn't do a GREAT job of it, and like I said earlier, in the last half hour I felt my engagement starting to fade.

 

[bandicoot]

I watched this with a girl I used to date who is now a man.

Pretty good flick.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I think that movies, more than anything else, are supposed to be entertaining.

For sure. That's why classical music truly sucks. If people liked it they'd call it pop.

 

[europe1]

Ah man where to start with Heathers? I believe there is a lot to say and point out about this movie but I struggle to put it together in a cohesive narrative. I think I'm going to do more of a thematic analysis write-up. Since the actual plot of Heathers is suprisingly detailed I'm going to skip a lot of it for the sake of brevity. I definitively liked the movie though.




So Heathers is about a girl named Veronica who has grown cynical of the High School clique-culture -- despite being in it's elite stratosphere of popularity. She feels apart from the rest. This is even symbolized in her name -- all the other 3 elite girls being called Heather. Someone asks her, "Are you a Heather?" and she replies "No, I am a Veronica." She longs for the simple happiness she used to have with her old nerd-friend. She's a person who before the film began sacrified friendship for popularity.

What permeates Veronica's world is a sense of monotony, mundanes and emotional detachment. Most of her class-mates are really superficial, firmly embedded in the inane clique-culture. Her parents are oblivious and ineffectual, following the same old replies "because you're an idiot dad" and can't even give any meaningful reaction when her boyfriend just warned them she might comit suicide.

As Christian Slater says, “Seven schools in seven states and the only thing different is my locker combination.". It's a fact of life. Attentive people like Veronica are bound to get bored and fatigued of all it's superficial trappings and farces.

So Veronica encounters JD (more on him later) -- and they end up killing the Head-Heather. They pass it off as a suicide. The school buys it. However, a second Heather assumes her mantle.


Here, however, Veronica starts diverging from JD. Their motivations are different. JD wants to keep killing. His motivation is that he hates the world. Veronica wants to stop killing. Her motivations is that she really just want some companionship in her life. It's not the sort of emotion that drives one to want to watch the world burn (as does JD). Initially, she thought she had found this companionship in a romantic relationship with JD. But as he turns out to be quite reprehensible -- she shifts her focus of compantionship towards her potential friends (first the nerdy childhood friend she had, and then the overweight chick.)

The crux of the issue for Veronica is that the "suicides" of her schoolmates does not destroy the clique-culture that she loaths. It only reinforces it. When Heather and the Football players die -- people assume that they were a lot more deep and romantic than they really were. They go from popular to sensational. The overweight chick sees that these people are grandized in their death -- and becomes so desperate for love that she too tries to kill herself.

But no-one lionizes the overweight chick. To them -- they call her a posser. It illuminates to Veronica just how entrenched the clique-culture is in how people judge others.


The movie ending with Veronica hanging out with the overweight chick signifies a moral standpoint. Veronica began the film with an air of ironic detatchement. She loathed the clique-culture but dealt with it through detatchement rather than engagement. Her reaching out a hand to the Overweight chick is a sign that she realizes that common humanity is something worth striving for -- in contrast to the idiotic superficiallity of the clique-culture or the destructive nillisim of JD.

Another big sign of this is when she choses to rescue the 3rd Heather from a suicide. It's more meaninful to care about people rather than deride them (clique-culture) or wish them dead (JD).

 

[europe1]

Some thoughts on the Gurlz.

1. Notice how they're not really sexualized (unless this is some weird 80's sexuality that I'm unfamiliar with). Yeah they're beautiful and stylish -- but they're outfit isn't exactly tailored to show a lot of T&A. It's strangely... colorful and gaudy. I guess that's part of what makes this movie special. It's has this unique, idiosyncratic, techno-colour vibe to it. The lack of sexualization also brings to drama to the forefront.

2. They're also... so... brazen.

(For some reason is deeply amusing to see two cutesy chicks talking about "pulling their dicks".)

Not excactly the sweet-talking ones.
I think there is a theme of being Drunk on Power in here. Whoever the Head-Heather ends up being really brazen and vitriolic in their language. They condemn others. They set the clique-based rules. The Head-Heather has social power -- so she uses that power boldly and aggresively, labeling people with every word she spews. The second Heather grows a lot more brazen when she assumes the mantle it seems.

As first Heather says, "They all want me as a friend or a fuck. I'm worshiped at Westerburg and I'm only a junior."

3.

Notice that red... string... lace (what the hell do you call that thing in English?) on First-Heathers head. It gets passed around in the movie.

Firstly, it's the artifact of Heather the First. Red is her Colour. She ALWAYS picks red when they're playing... whatever that game is called.

The colour red is then laid claim for by the Second Heather. JD even gives her the red lace-thing that First Heather sported after her death. This symbolizes that Second Heather has taken her place and her power. She's now the Queen-Bitch of the Schoolyard. This also makes her personality more aggressive and assertive.

However, notice how Veronica snatches it from her in the end. She takes the red-thing from Second Heather and fastens it to her own hair. The red-lace is a symbol of who dominates the school. With it's conquest -- Veronica will now be the ruler of the schoolyard. I think this symbolizes three things.

• 1). That Veronica has grown as a person. She grows more assertive and certain-of-herself through the film. The fact that she can just snatch it away from Second Heather shows how self-confident she has become.
• 2). Consider that the very next thing she does is invite Overweight chick to hangout. Unlike the previous Heathers -- who used their powers to codify the clique-culture -- Veronica is going to use her powers for good. She's not going to condemnt or label anyone. She's going to be humanistic.
• 3). That JD might have been wrong. JD thinks that "Only in Heaven can people get along". This worldview is what gives him the impetus to kill everyone. With Veronica assuming the red-lace -- it's she who decides who is going to be popular and cool -- so she might work to bring some lasting changes to the schools social fabric. It was the Heathers who walked around and placed people in boxes. Veronica isn't going to do that.

 

[Guestx]

@europe1, good stuff bro. Feels like old times. I can't remember the last time you put that much into one of your write-ups.

I enjoyed the read and have just a few things to touch on.

So Heathers is about a girl named Veronica who has grown cynical of the High School clique-culture -- despite being in it's elite stratosphere of popularity. She feels apart from the rest. This is even symbolized in her name -- all the other 3 elite girls being called Heather. Someone asks her, "Are you a Heather?" and she replies "No, I am a Veronica." She longs for the simple happiness she used to have with her old nerd-friend. She's a person who before the film began sacrified friendship for popularity.

One thing I never fully understood was exactly WHY she wanted to hang with the cool kids, and why she kept insisting even as it was making her miserable. I mean, from the moment that we're dropped into the film she is already bitching about the Heathers and talking about how she wishes Heather #1 would die . . . but she keeps playing the game. Instead of just walking away, she keeps on doing what she thinks she needs to do to become one of the group.

That didn't make a ton of sense to me.

I'd just like to point out that that is NOT Winona Ryder.

She ALWAYS picks red when they're playing... whatever that game is called.

Croquet

3). That JD might have been wrong. JD thinks that "Only in Heaven can people get along". This worldview is what gives him the impetus to kill everyone.

When he makes that statement--that heaven is the only place where people of different social groups will get along--I was straight up taken off guard because the film suddenly delved into serious metaphysical/theological issues and I was not expecting that. I remember when I was younger, and thinking seriously about the nature of heaven--that it's supposed to be a place where everyone exists in a state of bliss, far removed from the pain and chaos of this world--I remember I started to wonder if it actually made sense that people fight so hard to cling to life in this world if there really is something so much better in the world to come.

And you of course could make the argument that not everyone believes in heaven, and okay sure, but most religious people do and yet even religious people almost always seem determined to cling to this life to the bitter end. It doesn't make a ton of sense, and imagine if somehow we actually proved that heaven existed and that everyone gets to go there--that really would cast a different shadow upon acts like suicide and murder.

All this is to say that I felt like JD's behavior represents a belief in heaven taken to its furthest logical conclusion, which is not something I've ever actually seen a movie deal with before. It's very weird that this was suddenly thrown into the plot though, because there had been no indication before that JD held any serious religious or spiritual beliefs.