SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 46 Discussion - They Live | Page 3

Discussion in 'Mayberry Lounge' started by shadow_priest_x, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. ultimateriley-o Lego Maniac

    ultimateriley-o
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    Right, sure. I probably misrepresented my point to a degree -- the idea that the evidence of COINTELPRO was simply there for the taking and nobody knew is not what I mean. My point is that these acts are exposed with proof, rather than without; yes it's not simply in the library in the "state secrets" section and simply no one went in there, it's that the evidence is found and then the corruption is exposed. So when you say "we definitely do have enough evidence NOW to prove the big conspiracies that are known to all. But of course they didn't start that way.", that's a little inaccurate. The corruptions are exposed with evidence; a conspiracy theory backed with real evidence is the only one really worth talking about. And of course that includes leaked documents and whistleblowers. So when the NSA is spying on Americans, we find out about it with evidence.

    Sorry for the thread derailment. This is why I'm not invited to movie clubs. Or parties. Or really anywhere.
     
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  2. shadow_priest_x Titanium Belt

    shadow_priest_x
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    I think it's important to draw the distinction between evidence and proof. They are not the same thing. A detective can collect evidence to support his theory of a case, but one clue does not prove it. It only SUGGESTS that something could be true.

    I think you need to zero in on my word "enough" in the statement that you quoted. My point is this: Sure, no one doubts that MKUltra was a real government program today, because the amount of evidence is overwhelming. But often with cases like this, it starts with a small piece of evidence, a small clue . . . and then there's another . . . and then another . . . and it grows until support for the idea becomes too much to deny.

    Surely, a conspiracy theory with NO evidence isn't worth taking seriously. But is there ANY evidence, even if it falls short of being rock-solid proof?

    Well for a movie like this I think this kind of discussion is the natural order of things. So it's not really a derailment at all!
     
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    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  3. ultimateriley-o Lego Maniac

    ultimateriley-o
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    No, of course we don't dismiss these things out of hand because there's no evidence, but by the same token, we shouldn't pay them much mind when there is literally no evidence, or worse, there's hard evidence to the contrary. My point here is that conspiracy theory discussion is almost always groundless beyond the simple fact of the existence of previous governmental conspiracies. Simply because someone thinks they've found a clue or circumstantial connection to the possibility of their theory, does not mean that the Earth is flat, or that there's a child sex ring in DC restaurants, and the truth about MK Ultra doesn't make it so. So yes, if you think you've found a clue or connection, follow it through and see where it leads, Bob Woodward, but don't expect me to care without something beyond pure supposition.
     
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  4. shadow_priest_x Titanium Belt

    shadow_priest_x
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    I think there's still a bit more to it.

    Nada gains the ability to see after entering a church. It's the Christian Church that is held up as the force of GOOD . . . and the aliens--might we actually say demons?--who are held up as the force of EVIL. Even if you don't want to go the demonic route, things like materialism, worldly power, etc are correlated in the Bible with Satan.

    So if you choose to read it that way, it's GOOD (GOD) vs EVIL (SATAN).

    There's subtext there if you look at it like that.

    The fuck you waiting for?
     
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  5. Mike This pointless life

    Mike
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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. shadow_priest_x Titanium Belt

    shadow_priest_x
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    Isn't there a middle ground though?

    That's what I'm getting at. For something that is ridiculous and there is no evidence then it shouldn't be given credence. But for something that at least SOME evidence exists--even if it's not proof--we should at least listen.

    Let me ask you, how do you feel about the whole 9/11 Truther thing?
     
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  7. MusterX Steel Belt

    MusterX
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    I'm not saying that was Carpenters motivation, to create something that reflected American life 35 years later but that is what he did. Same thing with the "This is Your God" thing, he may not have wanted to express Mammon but that is what he did, even if unwillingly. This movie has a cult following, a rather large cult following, and as the years go by the movie more closely resembles today's world than it does the Reagan era which in retrospect seems like DAMN good times about right now lol. If Carpenter lamented the 80's then he must have shit himself in the following 25 years. That's why I wondered how he feels about the way history has played out since then.
     
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  8. Bullitt68 Senior Moderator

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    Just dropping in quickly to say that I really liked this movie (I didn't quite love it but it's a fun watch that makes you think) and that anyone else who likes this movie and who likes film analysis would probably like this book:

    https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/They_Live.html?id=SSDhnQEACAAJ&redir_esc=y

    It was part of a short-lived book series called "Deep Focus" intended to move away from academic writing and towards more personal and idiosyncratic criticism. The book on They Live was the first in the series and I think it's the best.
     
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  9. europe1 It´s a nice peninsula to Asia

    europe1
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    First couple of pages, mentions "diegesis", "metatextuality" and definitions of ideology and author theory. You sure this ain't academic?:D

    Just being farcial, thanks for the tip.
     
    #49
  10. Bullitt68 Senior Moderator

    Bullitt68
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    Well he's got to establish what he's moving away from ;)

    Honestly, I don't remember a single point made in the book. I just remember enjoying the writing style which was very different than what I was accustomed to reading. And I liked the motivating idea for the series, i.e. getting people to write from a very personal position on films that may not be on the tip of an academic's tongue but that are nevertheless important and worth thinking seriously about.
     
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  11. shadow_priest_x Titanium Belt

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    Some interesting Tweets from Hot Rod before he died:


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]




    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
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  12. ultimateriley-o Lego Maniac

    ultimateriley-o
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    If there's credible evidence, of course it should be given credence.

    9/11 truthers are a pretty good example. You've got WTC7 coming down, you've got speculation about jet fuel and steel beams, you've got accusations of government involvement (and even the cui bono of now having the justification for The Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay, etc), was it a rocket that hit The Pentagon, and especially why was the subsequent so seemingly rushed and secretive ? So, early on after the actual attack, I believe seeking out the truth is understandable and commendable. However, now that explanations for those events have been established and confusions have been addressed by experts of all stripes, I think you now do a disservice to seeking the truth by not accepting that. That's not to say the official story is always true, but when the official story is totally rational and no real qualified expert in the field disputes it, continuing to fight it is embarrassing at the very least. My real frustration with conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists is how unwilling people are to change their minds on a subject when they've been proven wrong beyond any real shadow of a doubt.

    Same goes for The Moon Landing, anti-vaxxers, anti-GMO activists, climate change deniers, etc.
     
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  13. shadow_priest_x Titanium Belt

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    My only issue with any of this is that for a lot of these questions you can find legitimate, credentialed experts with a good reputation in their field to provide arguments against the so-called explanations. Take 9/11 for instance, when you have good researchers like Steven Jones arguing against the official explanation, the waters can get pretty muddy pretty quickly.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

    He is of course just one example.
     
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  14. TheRuthlessOne Violence Belt

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    Big fan of his character

    You guys should watch Legends House if you wanna see him just being himself

    RIP Piper
     
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  15. shadow_priest_x Titanium Belt

    shadow_priest_x
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    Legends House? What's that all about?
     
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  16. TheRuthlessOne Violence Belt

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    Its like a real world show but with old wwf wrestlers

    Piper is one of the house guests and is hilarious
     
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  17. shadow_priest_x Titanium Belt

    shadow_priest_x
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    LOL I'll have to check it out, thanks.
     
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  18. shadow_priest_x Titanium Belt

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  19. Strychnine Gold Belt

    Strychnine
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    I'm not in the club but I'd like to be.

    In movies I rarely have an "OH $hit!" moment. They Live gave me one of the most memorable ones of my (then, young) life..

    [​IMG]

    Talk about a moment to reflect on your life... It hit me like a hickory maul. I changed my life that day.
     
    #59
  20. MusterX Steel Belt

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    Awesome find. That's what I was saying to Europe is that this film has a rather huge cult following to this day and it really makes different sense compared to what Carpenter may have intended. They Live in this current time has a much different meaning than a problem with Reaganomics. It has in many ways become a symbol of awakening to any number of things and Piper realized that.
     
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