SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 46 Discussion - They Live

[ultimateriley-o]

I don't disagree.

I think the very word "conspiracy," and by extension "conspiracy theory," is so loaded that it can often derail any productive conversation. To a lot of people, just the word "conspiracy" means some far-right wacky idea, even though as I said before conspiracies are all around us and we have all participated in them.

Regarding evidence, yes, we definitely do have enough evidence NOW to prove the big conspiracies that are known to all. But of course they didn't start that way.

They started with, perhaps, a leaked document or a whistleblower with an unverified story or something else to that effect, rather than the whole story laid out like Thanksgiving dinner. I don't know exactly how we learned that MKUltra, for instance, was a real program, but I do know that it had to sound like the craziest shit at first. Just a wild fucking story.

Of course I do agree that we should insist on proper evidence before we just BELIEVE anything, but at the same time, I don't think we should refuse to listen to someone's idea just because all the evidence is not yet in place.

Right, sure. I probably misrepresented my point to a degree -- the idea that the evidence of COINTELPRO was simply there for the taking and nobody knew is not what I mean. My point is that these acts are exposed with proof, rather than without; yes it's not simply in the library in the "state secrets" section and simply no one went in there, it's that the evidence is found and then the corruption is exposed. So when you say "we definitely do have enough evidence NOW to prove the big conspiracies that are known to all. But of course they didn't start that way.", that's a little inaccurate. The corruptions are exposed with evidence; a conspiracy theory backed with real evidence is the only one really worth talking about. And of course that includes leaked documents and whistleblowers. So when the NSA is spying on Americans, we find out about it with evidence.

Sorry for the thread derailment. This is why I'm not invited to movie clubs. Or parties. Or really anywhere.

 

[Guestx]

So when you say "we definitely do have enough evidence NOW to prove the big conspiracies that are known to all. But of course they didn't start that way.", that's a little inaccurate. The corruptions are exposed with evidence; a conspiracy theory backed with real evidence is the only one really worth talking about. And of course that includes leaked documents and whistleblowers. So when the NSA is spying on Americans, we find out about it with evidence.

I think it's important to draw the distinction between evidence and proof. They are not the same thing. A detective can collect evidence to support his theory of a case, but one clue does not prove it. It only SUGGESTS that something could be true.

I think you need to zero in on my word "enough" in the statement that you quoted. My point is this: Sure, no one doubts that MKUltra was a real government program today, because the amount of evidence is overwhelming. But often with cases like this, it starts with a small piece of evidence, a small clue . . . and then there's another . . . and then another . . . and it grows until support for the idea becomes too much to deny.

Surely, a conspiracy theory with NO evidence isn't worth taking seriously. But is there ANY evidence, even if it falls short of being rock-solid proof?

Sorry for the thread derailment. This is why I'm not invited to movie clubs. Or parties. Or really anywhere.

Well for a movie like this I think this kind of discussion is the natural order of things. So it's not really a derailment at all!

 

[ultimateriley-o]

I think you need to zero in on my word "enough" in the statement that you quoted. My point is this: Sure, no one doubts that MKUltra was a real government program today, because the amount of evidence is overwhelming. But often with cases like this, it starts with a small piece of evidence, a small clue . . . and then there's another . . . and then another . . . and it grows until support for the idea becomes too much to deny.

No, of course we don't dismiss these things out of hand because there's no evidence, but by the same token, we shouldn't pay them much mind when there is literally no evidence, or worse, there's hard evidence to the contrary. My point here is that conspiracy theory discussion is almost always groundless beyond the simple fact of the existence of previous governmental conspiracies. Simply because someone thinks they've found a clue or circumstantial connection to the possibility of their theory, does not mean that the Earth is flat, or that there's a child sex ring in DC restaurants, and the truth about MK Ultra doesn't make it so. So yes, if you think you've found a clue or connection, follow it through and see where it leads, Bob Woodward, but don't expect me to care without something beyond pure supposition.

 

[Guestx]

Yeah I meant to imply theological. Sloppy word pick on my part.

I think there's still a bit more to it.

Nada gains the ability to see after entering a church. It's the Christian Church that is held up as the force of GOOD . . . and the aliens--might we actually say demons?--who are held up as the force of EVIL. Even if you don't want to go the demonic route, things like materialism, worldly power, etc are correlated in the Bible with Satan.

So if you choose to read it that way, it's GOOD (GOD) vs EVIL (SATAN).

There's subtext there if you look at it like that.

I haven't actually rewatched the film yet -- just looked up certain scenes to refresh certain details and quotes. So my commentary is a bit wonkey.

The fuck you waiting for?

 

[Mike]

Well, I love this movie, its one of my favorites from my youth. Classic 1980's and with a deeper message. Obey, Consume, Submit, Watch T.V., Conform, Sleep, This is Your God (Mammon), etc. These are the very things that feel like lay under the surface of American life.

A consumer driven society where society is controlled by the very system "they live" within. They Live is about having an awakening to the realities of our culture, an awakening that most people never have for some reason. Its not so much, at least for me, about aliens subverting culture, even though they are very reptilian, that's another rabbit hole. I don't want to throw all the bullets on the table at once so I'm going to keep these posts bite sized.

Our entire system of government, and society, and corporatism, is the real life realization of the movie They Live. If you would have told me when I was a teenager that someday banks would check credit and deny something as basic as a checking account based on credit score, and employers would deny jobs based on credit score, I would have laughed in your face and yet that is exactly what happened. Our entire system of credit is the biggest scam ever, designed to keep the majority a slave to debt and controlled by their debt score.

Our government has set up a Big Brother style surveillance state and our federal reserve banking system demands we spend more, consume, consume, consume, or we are threatened that the economy will collapse. Everything about our media, our capitalism, our government, says don't think, just consume more, work, reproduce, die.

And of course the fight scene which runs over 5 minutes and is glorious.



9/10

 

[Guestx]

No, of course we don't dismiss these things out of hand because there's no evidence, but by the same token, we shouldn't pay them much mind when there is literally no evidence, or worse, there's hard evidence to the contrary. My point here is that conspiracy theory discussion is almost always groundless beyond the simple fact of the existence of previous governmental conspiracies. Simply because someone thinks they've found a clue or circumstantial connection to the possibility of their theory, does not mean that the Earth is flat, or that there's a child sex ring in DC restaurants, and the truth about MK Ultra doesn't make it so. So yes, if you think you've found a clue or connection, follow it through and see where it leads, Bob Woodward, but don't expect me to care without something beyond pure supposition.

Isn't there a middle ground though?

That's what I'm getting at. For something that is ridiculous and there is no evidence then it shouldn't be given credence. But for something that at least SOME evidence exists--even if it's not proof--we should at least listen.

Let me ask you, how do you feel about the whole 9/11 Truther thing?

 

[MusterX]

Well... I don't think it's a direct reference to the biblical concept of Mammon, squarely because Carpenter isn't excactly the most religious guy around so it'll be weird for him to have that in mind when he made the film. Nor does the film deal with religion outside the whole "money is god" angle. If anything, the heart of the film is more with the socio-economically downtrodden than any Christian concepts.



That's an interesting statement to make since Carpenter has stated that he explicitly made the film as a criticism of 80's conservatism and Reganism. Now, Carpenter explicitly singles out unrestrained capitalism as his ire with that conservative movement -- but considering his rather leftist leaning I rather doubt that Carpenter saw nationalism as the cure for these ailments.

I'm not saying that was Carpenters motivation, to create something that reflected American life 35 years later but that is what he did. Same thing with the "This is Your God" thing, he may not have wanted to express Mammon but that is what he did, even if unwillingly. This movie has a cult following, a rather large cult following, and as the years go by the movie more closely resembles today's world than it does the Reagan era which in retrospect seems like DAMN good times about right now lol. If Carpenter lamented the 80's then he must have shit himself in the following 25 years. That's why I wondered how he feels about the way history has played out since then.

 

[Bullitt68]

Just dropping in quickly to say that I really liked this movie (I didn't quite love it but it's a fun watch that makes you think) and that anyone else who likes this movie and who likes film analysis would probably like this book:

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/They_Live.html?id=SSDhnQEACAAJ&redir_esc=y

It was part of a short-lived book series called "Deep Focus" intended to move away from academic writing and towards more personal and idiosyncratic criticism. The book on They Live was the first in the series and I think it's the best.

 

[europe1]

intended to move away from academic writing and towards more personal and idiosyncratic criticism

First couple of pages, mentions "diegesis", "metatextuality" and definitions of ideology and author theory. You sure this ain't academic?

Just being farcial, thanks for the tip.

 

[Bullitt68]

First couple of pages, mentions "diegesis", "metatextuality" and definitions of ideology and author theory. You sure this ain't academic?

Well he's got to establish what he's moving away from

Just being farcial, thanks for the tip.

Honestly, I don't remember a single point made in the book. I just remember enjoying the writing style which was very different than what I was accustomed to reading. And I liked the motivating idea for the series, i.e. getting people to write from a very personal position on films that may not be on the tip of an academic's tongue but that are nevertheless important and worth thinking seriously about.

 

[Guestx]

I'm not saying that was Carpenters motivation, to create something that reflected American life 35 years later but that is what he did. Same thing with the "This is Your God" thing, he may not have wanted to express Mammon but that is what he did, even if unwillingly. This movie has a cult following, a rather large cult following, and as the years go by the movie more closely resembles today's world than it does the Reagan era which in retrospect seems like DAMN good times about right now lol. If Carpenter lamented the 80's then he must have shit himself in the following 25 years. That's why I wondered how he feels about the way history has played out since then.

Some interesting Tweets from Hot Rod before he died:

 

[ultimateriley-o]

Isn't there a middle ground though?

That's what I'm getting at. For something that is ridiculous and there is no evidence then it shouldn't be given credence. But for something that at least SOME evidence exists--even if it's not proof--we should at least listen.

Let me ask you, how do you feel about the whole 9/11 Truther thing?

If there's credible evidence, of course it should be given credence.

9/11 truthers are a pretty good example. You've got WTC7 coming down, you've got speculation about jet fuel and steel beams, you've got accusations of government involvement (and even the cui bono of now having the justification for The Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay, etc), was it a rocket that hit The Pentagon, and especially why was the subsequent so seemingly rushed and secretive ? So, early on after the actual attack, I believe seeking out the truth is understandable and commendable. However, now that explanations for those events have been established and confusions have been addressed by experts of all stripes, I think you now do a disservice to seeking the truth by not accepting that. That's not to say the official story is always true, but when the official story is totally rational and no real qualified expert in the field disputes it, continuing to fight it is embarrassing at the very least. My real frustration with conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists is how unwilling people are to change their minds on a subject when they've been proven wrong beyond any real shadow of a doubt.

Same goes for The Moon Landing, anti-vaxxers, anti-GMO activists, climate change deniers, etc.

 

[Guestx]

If there's credible evidence, of course it should be given credence.

9/11 truthers are a pretty good example. You've got WTC7 coming down, you've got speculation about jet fuel and steel beams, you've got accusations of government involvement (and even the cui bono of now having the justification for The Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay, etc), was it a rocket that hit The Pentagon, and especially why was the subsequent so seemingly rushed and secretive ? So, early on after the actual attack, I believe seeking out the truth is understandable and commendable. However, now that explanations for those events have been established and confusions have been addressed by experts of all stripes, I think you now do a disservice to seeking the truth by not accepting that. That's not to say the official story is always true, but when the official story is totally rational and no real qualified expert in the field disputes it, continuing to fight it is embarrassing at the very least. My real frustration with conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists is how unwilling people are to change their minds on a subject when they've been proven wrong beyond any real shadow of a doubt.

Same goes for The Moon Landing, anti-vaxxers, anti-GMO activists, climate change deniers, etc.

My only issue with any of this is that for a lot of these questions you can find legitimate, credentialed experts with a good reputation in their field to provide arguments against the so-called explanations. Take 9/11 for instance, when you have good researchers like Steven Jones arguing against the official explanation, the waters can get pretty muddy pretty quickly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

He is of course just one example.

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Some interesting Tweets from Hot Rod before he died:

Big fan of his character

You guys should watch Legends House if you wanna see him just being himself

RIP Piper

 

[Guestx]

Big fan of his character

You guys should watch Legends House if you wanna see him just being himself

RIP Piper

Legends House? What's that all about?

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Legends House? What's that all about?

Its like a real world show but with old wwf wrestlers

Piper is one of the house guests and is hilarious

 

[Guestx]

Its like a real world show but with old wwf wrestlers

Piper is one of the house guests and is hilarious

LOL I'll have to check it out, thanks.

 

[Guestx]

@WebAlchemist, where you at?

 

[Strychnine]

I'm not in the club but I'd like to be.

In movies I rarely have an "OH $hit!" moment. They Live gave me one of the most memorable ones of my (then, young) life..

Talk about a moment to reflect on your life... It hit me like a hickory maul. I changed my life that day.

 

[MusterX]

Some interesting Tweets from Hot Rod before he died:

Awesome find. That's what I was saying to Europe is that this film has a rather huge cult following to this day and it really makes different sense compared to what Carpenter may have intended. They Live in this current time has a much different meaning than a problem with Reaganomics. It has in many ways become a symbol of awakening to any number of things and Piper realized that.