shamrock vs liddell

Discussion in 'Worldwide MMA Discussion' started by Roukas, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. Hellhammer84

    Hellhammer84 Orange Belt

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    The Lions Den were still getting some wins in the regional circuit back in the early 2000's but as far as making waves in Pride or UFC, they were basically done. Dan Freeman (the bodybuilder) was like a strength coach and nutritionist to them. Probably explains why there was so many injuries and guys gassing out. I'm sure he's probably a good dude but I can imagine instead of working bjj, more wrestling etc. he probably had them spending that time doing bodybuilding style weight training
     
  2. Ancient Warrior

    Ancient Warrior Silver Belt

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    He was definitely winning, but Mezger’s Achilles heel has always been stamina.
     
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  3. PolarBearPaulVarelans

    PolarBearPaulVarelans Orange Belt

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    Certainly, but that was the Achilles heel for virtually all Lion's Den fighters. Meanwhile, what were Miletich guys all known for? Really good cardio.

    Even Mark Coleman, who had notoriously bad cardio throughout his career, showed his best stamina when he trained with Miletich, which is also when he won the first PRIDE Grand Prix.
     
  4. mkt

    mkt Silver Belt

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    Tank had a juco wrestling background and was a better wrestler than Goodridge. Both guys were dangerous, but I think Tank circa 1996 was more dangerous than Goodridge. Huge power in his hands and TDD as good or better than Goodridge. Severn was the only fighter to take early Tank down..unless you count the brief TD by Hugo Duarte that ended with Tank pulverizing him.

    And Ken's submissions were MUCH better than early Couture. Randy got submitted frequently in the late 1990s and had little to no offensive submission game. There appears to be a good bit of bias here. I was actually watching NHB back in those days...
     
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  5. mkt

    mkt Silver Belt

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    They didn't need BJJ any more than Khabib or Fedor do...they just needed to improve their catch and evolve with BJJ. The Lion's Den guys had good ground games and Frank Shamrock was as good or better off his back then any of the Gracies. Watch him vs. Kevin Jackson, Hendo (in submission grappling), etc.

    They were actually the first school to cross-train...while the Gracies remained one-dimensional. The Lion's Den did have some problems, and Ken and Frank's falling out was their ultimate downfall. But they were ahead of their time in the mid-90s.
     
  6. PolarBearPaulVarelans

    PolarBearPaulVarelans Orange Belt

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    I'm aware of all this, but the problem is that Tank simply didn't train properly or seriously. If Tank trained the way his one-time protege Tito Ortiz did, then maybe we would be discussing him as on the greatest fighters of the 90's, a legendary pioneer, and an easy UFC Hall of Famer.

    Problem is, he didn't. Tank's stamina sucked, his sub defense sucked, and he lost to every single good fighter he ever faced, and at least one who wasn't. (Ferozzo)

    Even after he hit a dream scenario against Don Frye and badly hurt him with strikes to start the fight, he still got easily taken down and choked out.

    His best wins were my namesake Paul Varelans, and a massively overhyped Hugo Duarte.

    So yes, Ken Shamrock beats Tank by wrestling him and having better stamina.

    As for Goodridge, he had better stamina than Tank, better sub defense, and vastly better stand-up defense, even when he was green.

    Did you read what I wrote? I wasn't looking at "early Couture", but Randy over the entirety of his career. And the difference, as I already noted, is that Randy didn't give up dominant position to chase after a sub, fail, and end up on his back eating punches the way that Ken frequently did later in his career. Nevertheless, Randy's Anaconda choke on Mike Van Arsdale and RNC on Mark Coleman are FAR more impressive than any of Ken's submission wins.

    Do you think that's special? So was I and hundreds of thousands of other people.
     
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  7. PolarBearPaulVarelans

    PolarBearPaulVarelans Orange Belt

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    You're mixing up time periods and styles here. Even the guys whose submission grappling styles are not pure BJJ still had to learn it, especially back then.

    All this is a moot point, though, since Lion's Den guys all had horrible cardio and would all gas out. They couldn't even get that right.

    And what did Frank Shamrock do? He left Lion's Den, formed The Alliance with Maurice Smith, and him and Smith would go on to have more success than all of the Lion's Den put together. This, despite some absolutely tremendous talent. In a parallel universe, Guy Mezger and Mikey Burnette are both among the 10 greatest mixed martial arts to ever live at this point.
     
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  8. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    hmmm...Coleman won this tournament under special circumstances, Im sure you´re aware of it...
     
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  9. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    I honestly cant see how..he was so out of his physical prime..
     
  10. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    Marco Huas was already out of his physical prime when he reached the international stage (nagging injuries vs Maurice or Otsuka).
    Not a sound match-up, if you´re considering a healthy Ken here

    vs Gary, it´s realistically more than 50-50, a probable heel hook there.

    vs Maurice, really depends... Henzo for instance schooled him in Rings...

    A matter of perspective, all these match-ups...
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
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  11. Hellhammer84

    Hellhammer84 Orange Belt

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    Liddell even today goes through Ken within seconds just on muscle memory alone. I know Royce cheated in their 3rd fight with the knee to the groin but he was still on his way out just from Royces ground and pound. Imagine a wild haymaker from Liddell landing on him. Not good at all.
     
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  12. Idonotbelieveit

    Idonotbelieveit winning

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    Ken had no chance his mouth got him 2 more fight s
     
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  13. Idonotbelieveit

    Idonotbelieveit winning

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    Solid post
     
  14. Idonotbelieveit

    Idonotbelieveit winning

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    Chuck kills Ken most of times
    1996 Ken would be competitive
     
  15. Ibm

    Ibm Brown Belt

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    Would watch!
     
  16. Within the Living Death

    Within the Living Death Yellow Belt

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    You make some very good points here, and I agree with almost everything you said. However, I do think Shamrock had a chance of slapping a kneebar on Coleman back then from the bottom and getting the win. I'm not saying Ken definitely would have won had they fought, I'm just saying it could have been a very possible outcome.
     
  17. PolarBearPaulVarelans

    PolarBearPaulVarelans Orange Belt

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    You can't go for a kneebar easily from the bottom, though. It's more a move you go for when both fighters are standing or when you have top position.

    Going through Ken's career, he has only 2 kneebar finishes in his career. One being the second fight against Bas Rutten, which was a work. (And he had top position) The other being the first fight against Kimo, where, off the top of my head, it was a scramble where Ken was on top.

    Most likely, Coleman takes Ken down and smashes him into oblivion the same way Tito did the first time. Only more easily and brutally in his prime, especially if headbutts are allowed.
     
  18. Roukas

    Roukas Purple Belt

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    Lmaoooo Ken beat Coleman in training google it
     
  19. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    "One being the second fight against Bas Rutten, which was a work."

    Interesting...
     
  20. Within the Living Death

    Within the Living Death Yellow Belt

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    I would definitely favor Mark in this fight, no doubt. However, he used to raise up pretty high back then with his legs extended while in someone’s guard. I could see a possible, emphasis on possible, scenario where Ken could grab onto a leg and go for a submission. Another possibility is Ken getting an armbar. If you watch Coleman vs. Frye I, Don actually attempted a couple armbars at one point in the fight, but was too tired to pull it off. Not to mention submission was never really his thing.

    All in all, my money would be on Mark as he was the much better wrestler and I can easily see him completely destroying Ken.

    What are your thoughts on the stories of Ken owning Mark in training for Mark’s fight against Rizzo? Are they completely made up? I know Ken’s fans often over romanticize “prime Ken” to the point where he was this almost unstoppable force, which is clearly not true. Having said that though, is there any grain of truth in the “Ken owned Mark in training” legend?

    Also, what is you source on the second fight against Bas Rutten being a work? I have never heard it called a work before.
     

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