Sexual Harassment- It's nearly time for clemency (opinion)

tl; dr

But I liked because I probably agree.
 
Last edited:
TheGreatA said:
I think moderation is what people need to exercise.

Yes, it is bad if a man steals a kiss from a woman, or gropes them, or whatever, but it's not worth ruining someone's decades-long career for.

The punishment needs to fit the crime. The best punishment for most of these guys is an apology and a promise to never do it again. Of course, the ones who exceeded the criminal extent (the Harvey Weinstein's, arguably) ought to be ostracized, but for the most part we are talking about misbehaviour rather than outright criminal behaviour.

The standard that is being set here, a sort of retro throwback to the theocratic sexual repression between the genders, and the shaming of sexual displays, is one that few of us are going to be able to live up to, including the women. I'm afraid we can't just cherry-pick all of the good, while being able to eliminate all of the potentially awkward shit that's going to go down in an overtly sexualized society, where the standards of what is appropriate vary based on the level of attraction (something that is not always easy for a person to gauge). You aren't exactly given a rulebook with some basic orders to follow.

To a reasonable extent, we are going to have to be able to live with our imperfections, instead of defining ourselves (and others) based on them. To a point where a 50-year career of doing good for the society is buried because a man got drunk and grabbed a place which he shouldn't have, 20 or 30 years ago.

We have to always think and react in proportion.
Click to expand...

Some common sense words, but more practical in theory than reality.

How 'moderate' would your reaction be if your daughter, girlfriend or spouse had their boobs and vag grabbed by their boss? Should that guy not lose the cushy job he has had for 15 years?

What the vast majority of people believe is that everyone else needs to exercise moderation and some balanced restraint. But if the same thing happened to them and theirs, you bet your sweet ass they would be out with the picket signs.

Making men less afraid of the consequences of sexual harassment I think would be a backwards step.

And by the way, if you spent any time in upper or even middle management in the corporate world, you would not be suggesting this. Our current rules and regs are preposterously moderate.

If I were the President of a billion dollar company and I grabbed your GF's tits and hollered, 'nice ones'. I could not be fired just for that, nor could your gf successfully sue me or my company for sexual harassment. She would need to report me to the relevant HR and other entities within the company. And those parties would have to fail to address the matter. Only after repeated instances or failing to remedy the behavior would I or my company have any real exposure.

Moderation is not the solution. But moderation is, in a very real way, part of the problem.
 
Fawlty said:
@HIMBOB too, since he seems to have a similar opinion-

Would it be inappropriate to offer men & women the opportunity to come forward on the condition that minor (non-assault stuff, wherever that line is drawn) harassment would be aired, admitted, discussed, corrected and forgiven? Is that unrealistic?
Click to expand...

Fawlty- You are one of my favorite posters on here. But honestly, what are you on about? That can happen right now.

Nothing is stopping anyone from coming forward and admitting to inappropriate behavior in the past, and asking for forgiveness. And even the people that are being outed involuntarily are likely to suffer minimal consequences.

I mean think about it. What is the worst case scenario for Roy Moore. I mean absolute worst case? He does not become a Senator?????? OMFG!!! How on earth are the men in our society be going to endure such draconian punishment?
 
cooks1 said:
Some common sense words, but more practical in theory than reality.

How 'moderate' would your reaction be if your daughter, girlfriend or spouse had their boobs and vag grabbed by their boss? Should that guy not lose the cushy job he has had for 15 years?
Click to expand...

I don't think he should. He just shouldn't cross my path, that is all.

I don't think all of those people who work for that boss, should lose their jobs just because the boss happened to be an asshole to my daughter, or girlfriend, or whatever. That's a destructive impulse, to punish everyone, for one man's sins.

We'd just deal with the problem in a man to man situation, and leave it at that. He can keep his company because his company didn't assault my daughter or girlfriend. I don't need to exact vengeance on everything that the man has accomplished. A physical reminder of his transgressions, is enough. The punishment must fit the crime. The man might have a wife or children to look after, who need him to make a living. Those people that work for him, might need that company that he has built, to make a living.

I've had people insult me and the people that I care about before, and I've straightened them out. No need for any third party to get involved. No need for social media outrage, no need for the police, no need for the courts, no need for any of that.

What the vast majority of people believe is that everyone else needs to exercise moderation and some balanced restraint. But if the same thing happened to them and theirs, you bet your sweet ass they would be out with the picket signs.
Click to expand...

That's because they've grown to expect the state to carry out their punishment for them. Anyway, I think we just disagree on such a fundamental level that it's not really worth arguing about. The sort of a society that you propose, is the sort of a society that I'm sworn to resist against, with every inch of my being. And I'm afraid there are no real arguments that can stray me away from that innate belief.
 
Last edited:
Why are people equating hollywood to real life? In my workplace, your skills are defined by numbers, not blowjob ability.
 
cooks1 said:
So- If your mother or sister was raped 10 years ago, do you think the people that did it should be judged less harshly that if they raped them today?
Click to expand...

Knock it off, asshole. I'm talking about harassment and misconduct, not rape. And I think you knew that when you wrote that, so you probably owe me an apology. Way to instantly torpedo a post you put a lot of words and thought into. I'll forgive you for your indiscretion though. lol.

Sadly, there is nothing you need to do for your desired outcome to manifest Fawlty. It is going to happen on its own. In fact it is already happening. Accountability for past acts is already being minimized.

The belated consequences all these perpetrators are suffering are already orders of magnitude less than they would have been if they were doled out in real time. Bill Cosby will likely never serve a day in jail for drug raping dozens of women. Harvey will never serve a day in jail. Neither will Moore.
Click to expand...

You should also acknowledge how I specifically set Weinstein and Moore apart (which implies Cosby too, obviously) as people who should be made an example of. Weinstein may get what's coming, but they brought the wrong case against Cosby and Moore is sitting pretty in a shithole state of people who broadly lack any sense of morality in the face of politics. Unfortunate. I don't have any specific outcome in mind, other than we manage to deal with the problem without losing our minds. I see that the discussion is in danger of polarizing into cynicism vs capitulation.

We would likely never have even heard of the Charlie Roses and Louis CK's of the world if they had been busted in real time. Because they would have never have become rich and famous. Or at the very least they would have been much less rich and famous than they are now. The life's and lifestyles of these people are immeasurably better off than they would have been had they got busted earlier. No matter what happens.

We agree though that the key to having maximum accountability, and fairness is always going to be addressing things when they happen, not years later.

But no clemency is needed for past acts, either for these people or the ones that follow. They have already enjoyed clemency for their actions by having consequence free lives up to this point, and will continue to enjoy virtual clemency even after they are outed unless by some miracle they are prosecuted.

But No-Fuck No, we do not need to brainstorm ways to help letches that have avoided justice up to this point find ways to continue avoiding it.

You should also be careful the way you throw around the term 'systemic problem'. Because the vast, vast majority of men operate within our current system and climate without ever harassing or sexually assaulting women.
Click to expand...

I disagree that I'm reckless in calling it a systemic problem. The system has until recently allowed men to do pretty much anything they wanted without consequences, and the reason they didn't face consequences is because it was taboo for men to be held accountable. That means women reported less, and your "vast vast majority" of men refused to go to bat for them, because they were just trying to get by within the system. Even the good men did nothing- god forbid they lose admission to the Good Old Boys' Club.

And your response doesn't seem to take into account that I'm not calling for no consequences, just less severe consequences. For example, Louis taking the hit with his film and Netflix was a reasonable consequence. But blackballing him would not be, and plenty of people are reveling in the idea of his career ending. I also disagree that he wouldn't have become rich and famous. Let's say the first time he pulled his little stunt, his manager drops him and the clubs make him sit out for a while. That probably doesn't finish his career. If it's before his notoriety came, then the accusation doesn't get the same attention. It would be ridiculous, for example, to say that if you had sexually harassed somebody at McDonalds and been punished for it, that you would never be able to become a CEO.
 
cooks1 said:
Fawlty- You are one of my favorite posters on here. But honestly, what are you on about? That can happen right now.

Nothing is stopping anyone from coming forward and admitting to inappropriate behavior in the past, and asking for forgiveness. And even the people that are being outed involuntarily are likely to suffer minimal consequences.

I mean think about it. What is the worst case scenario for Roy Moore. I mean absolute worst case? He does not become a Senator?????? OMFG!!! How on earth are the men in our society be going to endure such draconian punishment?
Click to expand...
I agree that now is a good time for men to come forward.
 
Fawlty said:
I agree that now is a good time for men to come forward.
Click to expand...
whats wrong with sexual harrassment anyway? I mean at a moral level? Do you go to progressive hell? What are we basing 'good' and 'bad' on exactly?
 
cooks1 said:
Fawlty- You are one of my favorite posters on here. But honestly, what are you on about? That can happen right now.

Nothing is stopping anyone from coming forward and admitting to inappropriate behavior in the past, and asking for forgiveness. And even the people that are being outed involuntarily are likely to suffer minimal consequences.

I mean think about it. What is the worst case scenario for Roy Moore. I mean absolute worst case? He does not become a Senator?????? OMFG!!! How on earth are the men in our society be going to endure such draconian punishment?
Click to expand...


Yeah this thread is kind off odd. However, I see a lot of threads like this discussing non problems.

It tends to be cultural issues that can't really by solved through political policy. The right wing media love to harp on this sort of thing. Like starbucks cups or silent protests at the NFL. Its kind of funny because they want something to be done but don't know what. It shows their powerlessness in a lot of ways.
 
Last edited:
Tycho said:
whats wrong with sexual harrassment anyway? I mean at a moral level? Do you go to progressive hell? What are we basing 'good' and 'bad' on exactly?
Click to expand...

Basic human empathy.
 
Tycho said:
Oh I understand your pain. But what makes me care about it?
Click to expand...

Well part of empathy is understanding and then caring about it.

If you don't have empathy, you're some degree of sociopath.
 
Tycho said:
whats wrong with sexual harrassment anyway? I mean at a moral level? Do you go to progressive hell? What are we basing 'good' and 'bad' on exactly?
Click to expand...
Well, you're asking that instead of dealing with this, we should examine all of the moral presuppositions that we base our society on. It's like somebody getting caught stealing, and instead of deciding what his punishment should be, we instead have a discussion about whether our ideas about property are valid. Sure, we could do that in a philosophy or civics class maybe.
 
Fawlty said:
Well, you're asking that instead of dealing with this, we should examine all of the moral presuppositions that we base our society on. It's like somebody getting caught stealing, and instead of deciding what his punishment should be, we instead have a discussion about whether our ideas about property are valid. Sure, we could do that in a philosophy or civics class maybe.
Click to expand...
For society to function, this needs to be answered though. You cant just claim moral authority without doing it. Otherwise you will find more and more people breaking these 'rules'. The christians at least had hell. What do you have?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,236,549
Messages
55,426,345
Members
174,773
Latest member
DREDATORXXXXL

Share this page

Back
Top