Serious Question: Did the Heel Hook and Toe Hold come Catch Wrestling or Jiu Jitsu ?

[Dogstarman]

I’ve had to do research in university libraries, Judo 6+dan, direct students of Billy Robinson, talking to people who had access to Tenshin Shinyo Ryu material, bugging people on e-budo, asking for research help from people on the old JudoForum.. Basically, if you want to look into this material, you have a lot of work ahead of you, and you’ll likely never have enough concrete material to publish a history paper on it. Too much is just lost. Sorry to be disappointing.


Do you have some reference to heelhooks in particular being banned? I’m aware of the leglock ban in the early 1900s area but I haven’t seen anything mentioning that Kano’s students were even aware of the heelhook as a technique, let alone felt the need to ban it specifically.

Yeah, my impression is that the heelhook was present in Sambo due to the integration of leglocks from Catch-as-catch-can. I’d love to see some kind of reference to heelhooks in Judo but.... as for now, I’m skeptical.

Thanks for responding and being honest. I think you probably could write a book on it just add a caveat to the intro.

 

[efficientjudo]

especially Moshe Feldenkrais’s expansive work

Just had a look through his High Judo: Groundwork - crazy how much of that would now be thought of as 'BJJ moves' and is pretty much non-existent in many Judo clubs.

http://www.aryanalibris.com/index.php?post/Feldenkrais-Moshe-Higher-judo-ground-work

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Catch
Put billy riley vs helio and helio would be torn up

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

The bjj guys didn't know lower subs well

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Its funny because the classic Ashi-garami position in Judo is so close to being a heelhook, it seems hard to believe they never went for it - but I've never seen any evidence to suggest they did.

Rickson is on record saying he didn't know Lower body subs but he picked it up quick

 

[loyalyolayal]

When in doubt, give the credit to catch. Or you won't hear the end of it.

 

[RemyR]

Centaurs have been heel heel hooking people on greek vases.

Of course they would, those tricky bastards have no heels of their own to worry about in return.

 

[efficientjudo]

Rickson is on record saying he didn't know Lower body subs but he picked it up quick

I'm surprised by that - given Maeda's Judo and competing against wrestlers he must have surely known some leg locks, even if they weren't his go to's.

 

[ChainFlow]

I'm surprised by that - given Maeda's Judo and competing against wrestlers he must have surely known some leg locks, even if they weren't his go to's.

Well, keep in mind that Carlos certainly didn’t train to an expert level under Maeda and may not have actually trained directly under Maeda at all. Likely under 2 years if at all.

(See: the “Choque” discussion here: http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/choque-the-official-thread.2803359/)

And recall that supposedly the triangle choke was only introduced to BJJ through Rolls Gracie crosstraining with Judoka and referencing old judo manuals (not sure if that’s accurate but it’s said a lot)

And suddenly it becomes easy to think that there was a lot that Carlos didn’t learn before he started teaching his brothers.

 

[nefti]

BJJ is open source. I am sure most of it came from outside, buy just runs with the techniques into new devemopments.

 

[mataleaos]

The bjj guys didn't know lower subs well

To be fair Royler Gracie was playing single leg x guard and had very good straight foot locks early on in the game. Check this great highlight out. In some ways he was the precursor to Marcelo Garcia. But I agree with you on average. Jean Jacques Machado and Renzo Gracie had good foot locks also.

 

[mataleaos]

BJJ is open source. I am sure most of it came from outside, buy just runs with the techniques into new devemopments.

Yeah it has such an open rule set compared to most other combat sports that (with the exception of takedowns) once things get brought into it and start to get refined that it's hard to say they aren't a part of the art.

 

[selfcritical]

Echo what other people said about parallel evolution, but as far as recent migration, the way that the heel hook entered BJJ was through catch and indirectly through sambo (which got it from local folk wrestling styles that you could call catch if you squint hard enough. I mean, the phrase heel HOOK is kind of a clue. Hook is the term for a submission in english strains of CACC and not so much in other grappling arts.

On the parallel evolution front, the first heel hook i learned was in silat, and i'm pretty sure none of those Indonesian peasants were vintage professional wrestling enthusiasts. If you spend enough time twisting people's legs you'll figure out some ways to break them.

 

[mataleaos]

Echo what other people said about parallel evolution, but as far as recent migration, the way that the heel hook entered BJJ was through catch and indirectly through sambo (which got it from local folk wrestling styles that you could call catch if you squint hard enough. I mean, the phrase heel HOOK is kind of a clue. Hook is the term for a submission in english strains of CACC and not so much in other grappling arts.

On the parallel evolution front, the first heel hook i learned was in silat, and i'm pretty sure none of those Indonesian peasants were vintage professional wrestling enthusiasts. If you spend enough time twisting people's legs you'll figure out some ways to break them.

Never thought about that with the name heel hook. I first learned one in the early 00's at a Bas Rutten seminar and I know he learned them from Funaki and Suzuki I think. They were catch guys right?

 

[SHAOLINMONK420]

I like and respect both arts but I just wanted to know if The Heel Hook and Toe Hold came from Jiu Jitsu or Catch Wrestling.

Are there any sources out there to even find out ?

Predates human history

 

[j123]

It came from boxing

 

[nefti]

Yeah it has such an open rule set compared to most other combat sports that (with the exception of takedowns) once things get brought into it and start to get refined that it's hard to say they aren't a part of the art.

More grips, stances, throws, takedowns, are allowed in bjj than in judo or wrestling. All judo and wrestling takedowns are allowed in bjj.

 

[DatCutman]

More grips, stances, throws, takedowns, are allowed in bjj than in judo or wrestling. All judo and wrestling takedowns are allowed in bjj.

Let's not get too crazy. Suplexes are basically banned (if the throwee can't breakfall well and/or chooses not to tuck his chin, it becomes an illegal throw). I've seen a lot of high altitude throws end up in DQ's in IBJJF tournaments, just because BJJ guys can't breakfall (which saddens my heart).

Also doesn't address Sambo with the scissor takedown, which may as well be banned.

 

[nefti]

Let's not get too crazy. Suplexes are basically banned (if the throwee can't breakfall well and/or chooses not to tuck his chin, it becomes an illegal throw). I've seen a lot of high altitude throws end up in DQ's in IBJJF tournaments, just because BJJ guys can't breakfall (which saddens my heart).

Also doesn't address Sambo with the scissor takedown, which may as well be banned.

Suplexing someone on his head/neck is banned. Every judo throw no matter how head over heels you get thrown is allowed.

You are right the only sport with more takedowns allowed is sambo.

Do you not agree that more techniques on the groung and on the feet are allowed in Bob compared to the two most dominant styles aka judo and wrestling (especially Olympic).?

Suplex disqualification in a folkstyle

 

[DatCutman]

Suplexing someone on his head/neck is banned. Every judo throw no matter how head over heels you get thrown is allowed.

You are right the only sport with more takedowns allowed is sambo.

Do you not agree that more techniques on the groung and on the feet are allowed in Bob compared to the two most dominant styles aka judo and wrestling (especially Olympic).?

Suplex disqualification in a folkstyle

I'm sorry, but that's not my experience. I've been DQ'ed for doing a one arm shoulder throw where my opponent chose to post with their head instead of taking the fall. The slamming /"throws to the head" rule gets abused like any other rule. BJJ tournaments seem to favor the lower amplitude throws over the higher ones, as no one really knows how to breakfall. It creates this awful spiral of ignorance where it plays to your benefit not to know how to breakfall. If you're going to try and be an IBJJF competitor, I'd suggest doing wrestling and BJJ than Judo and BJJ, because you're less likely to be disqualified.