Serious Movie Discussion XLII

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Ok quick drop and apologies for not checking in. Also, forgive me for acting like you guys care that I haven't been checking in. Much love for this place and all the apes within it.

I like this guys channel and this piece seems like something some of you'd appreciate. I promise I'll check in soon for the usual self deprication, abuse and dick jokes. Cheers.

 
I think, from Logan's perspective, it's a "don't be like me" type deal. If you look at it from the nature/nurture angle, it's waffling a bit, but Logan fell into a deep anger that he couldn't pull himself out of, or that he couldn't pull out of himself. Laura still has a chance, though. She doesn't have to - although she could very easily - become Logan. I think Logan muddies the ethical waters more than Shane does; in the latter, the garden/desert antinomy is very strong and the purity of the former is as pure as it gets. In Logan, though, there's no question of any kind of purity. We're not dealing with a killing. It's more a kind of killing, or a kind of relation to killing. This is an almost hopelessly violent world, but the key is that it isn't hopeless. Laura still has a chance, but only if she holds on to her humanity and she doesn't let the violence consume her.

For me, I had a problem not with the inclusion of the Shane thematic and such allusive storytelling. Rather...

My problem was the way Laura's eulogy was just her parroting the dialogue from when her and Professor X were watching it. Because we, the viewers, know Shane, understand the themes at play, and can map the connections, the fact that it's playing on the TV means something to us. Does it - can it - actually mean anything to Laura? If it doesn't, what are we supposed to do with that? What's the takeaway? My initial reaction was of being struck by the disjunction between the thematic profundity and the diegetic emptiness.

@Ricky13 and @Dragonlordxxxxx, feel free to comment on this one, too.
Geezus, searching for the specific post you tagged me is an adventure by itself, heh.

I agree with you, Bullitt, in that I understood it as "don't be like me" in connection with the Shane quote and that it's not too late to change.

As for your problem with it, maybe they should have changed it and made Shane Wolverine's favorite movie and Laura knows it, hence the ending quote scene.
 
@Bullitt68 that Lonergan rant is indeed small and petty lol

I'll give you that the trailers for Manchester fucking blow. I saw them after the movie and I was pretty grossed out by them.
 
Commiserations.

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You in England right now? Lemsip Max FTW.

- Ricky MD

Yep. I've pretty much been sick since I've been back. Like the first week I was back here, I got a small cold. That turned into the most massive infection I've ever dealt with. Fatigue like I've never experienced, a fucking TOTAL loss of energy, on top of all the usual suspects (fever, headache, sore throat, coughing, nose blockage, etc.). I just did a week of Amoxicillin, and three days after, I'm almost right back where I started with the nose blockage, the post-nasal drip, and the sore throat.

I was in Tesco yesterday, though, and I spotted some Lemsip Max, so on the doctor's orders, I grabbed them ;)

I just know some writers manage to do both, and the more we favour serialisation, the less it's going to be important to remember some really fundamental rules about how to hold an audience's attention when you want to. I say it a lot, and I say it again. There's guys who can play you like a fiddle, and others who simply can't. The latter are the ones I'm beginning to see across the board.

This will be an interesting discussion to return to over time, as you're taking a long game view and wondering if/worrying that there will be negative long-term consequences.

"I must say a lot of the films that I’m aware of…and I don’t see that many new ones over the past two or three years, I stopped because the images don’t mean anything."

This is a very curious phenomenon. I haven't even begun to think about it, but I've noticed it whenever I've come across it. In his extraordinary book The World Viewed, Stanley Cavell literally starts his "reflections on the ontology of film" from this position.

"I have mentioned my increasing difficulty over the past several years to get myself to go to new movies. This has to do partly with an anxiousness in my response to new films I have seen (I don't at all mean I think they are bad), but equally with my anxiousness in what I feel to be new audiences for movies (not necessarily new people, but people with new reasons for being there), as though I cannot locate or remain together with my companions among them. I take this as something of more than clinical interest."

He wrote these words in 1971. I think this might be simply part of the human experience of movies, that we reach a saturation point where, to borrow a sentiment from a Genesis song, we know what we like and we like what we know. We develop an aesthetic sensibility and, at a certain point, all subsequent aesthetic experiences are measured against that sensibility. It goes without saying that we'll reject that which goes against our aesthetic sensibility.

How much our aesthetic sensibilities are determined by history, by culture, by what we're exposed to, etc., I haven't the foggiest. But, like Cavell, I think this is something of more than clinical interest.

I've completely forgotten what this was in reference to buddy. Sorry. If I can I will come back to it. If not, bring it up again somehow? I don't like leaving things un-argued. LOL.

It was the think/feel, mind/body thing.

Nobody truly lays anything on the line, or loses anything with lasting effect. Not since The Avengers anyway, where sacrifice early on (Coulson's death) drove sacrifice consequently (Tony holding on to the nuke). I don't mean to suggest characters need perish. Events simply must drive the choices of our heroes, and good writing makes you feel the gravity of the choice. If you have to explain it, you didn't feel it.

I confessed to being wary of the distinction between thinking and feeling. If you feel something, it's because it accords with something in your cognitive storehouse. It's not a one way street: You can articulate something and then reach a profound emotional state or you can feel something profoundly emotional and then from that feeling articulate it.

I don't like hiving the emotions off from the mind or vice-versa.

Please note that I don't lump you in necessarily with the average movie-goer when I say this:

My argument is that audiences are no longer invested in cinema to even want to "care enough already". Does that make sense?

It makes sense. I just hope it isn't true. Your note about not lumping me in with the average moviegoer is ironic since I always have to remind myself not to think of the average moviegoer as exactly like me.

I think however, that when you like something tonally, you're more likely - because of your academic/analytical nature - to impart significance to certain things thematically than I am (and vice versa eg. Fury Road). Whereas I am more likely to, through the lens of function to say, "But that's not what they're trying to say, based on the cinematic language I'm seeing."

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So, in essence, you're saying that we approach movies from two different perspectives, which, in turn, leads us to miss or misconstrue (which is important though I'll let you clarify your own position rather than speak for you) stuff.

For me, insofar as I approach movies from a tonal perspective (is this analogous to saying that I approach movies emotionally rather than intellectually?), I go from feeling to thinking.

For you, on the other hand, insofar as you approach movies from a functional perspective (is this analogous to saying that you approach movies intellectually rather than emotionally?), you go from thinking to feeling.

I want to wait until I know I have that right before I continue.

Killing off Robert Downey Jr. can't be an easy proposition to present to producers.

If we're to believe in the power of prognostication possessed by @chickenluver, it's going to happen and soon :eek:

I'm not sure it matters that he's suspicious of it if the evidence points in the opposite direction?

That's exactly what he's suspicious of and why he's suspicious. I don't think continuing on this point will stop us from talking at cross purposes, but since I like talking at all purposes, I think where he's coming from is to find in the discourse on sexual harassment a blanket condemnation of male behavior in the workplace. And Sorkin hates blankets.

Plus, Sorkin has an investment in masculinity and what a man should be (like) in this day and age, so of course he's going to look to mitigate perceptions of male villainy.

You weren't kidding.
@Bullitt68 that Lonergan rant is indeed small and petty lol

<Fedor23>

It's late and I apologise that I've been less thorough here, but I will get to this.

Looking forward to it.

I'm not saying it was utterly ineffective. I'm saying the pencil scene in TDK was a million times more effective.

I'll take Wolverine destroying motherfuckers over not seeing a guy get a pencil in his eye :cool:

Geezus, searching for the specific post you tagged me is an adventure by itself, heh.

Yeah, that's a mighty big haystack in which to go looking for a needle :D

As for your problem with it, maybe they should have changed it and made Shane Wolverine's favorite movie and Laura knows it, hence the ending quote scene.

That would've been better, but only if Logan would've been able to make connections between art and life like that. In the context of the film, and without altering the characterization of Logan as written for that film, they could've maybe had Professor X talk more about the film in a way that would've allowed Laura to recognize parallels, though that would've been a tough screenwriting tightrope act as far as avoiding having a character analyze the themes of the movie in the movie like a Tarkovsky film :rolleyes:
 
Miscommunication and misunderstanding in his films is literally the gf's thesis.

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I think because of how much you like Shane I just assume you've seen every Alan Ladd movie ever made, but did you ever see their collaborations? This Gun for Hire, The Glass Key, or The Blue Dahlia?

Oh I've been working my way through the Alan Ladd filmography ever since seeing Shane for sure. He's one of those actors that I just instantly like no matter the performance. They did Saigon togheter as well, btw.

This Gun for Hire is on my "bloody magnificent" list, which is a ranking just below the elated GOAT minoris and GOAT majoris categories. So yeah I do love it pretty darn much. Veronica's character in that movie is one of my favorite heroines in film history and Alan Ladd is just fantastic as well. I do really wish she had been gifted more roles like that one.

Never seen Blue Dahlia. The Glass Key is very good though. Ladd got beat up pretty badly in that one. Veronica was painfully underused, however, barely a presence at all.


Another guy I've never been crazy about.

The Shop Around the Corner is one of the best of it's kind, IMO.

This is so the movie Killing Season wished it could've been.

Travolta of Serbia? Yeah that's a pretty apt comparison.:D I thought Killing Seasons was at least sort-of watchable but it sure-did fail to achieve what it was going for.

Am I making it up or didn't you see Lured with Lucille Ball and the show-stopping Boris Karloff? That was one of Sirk's earliest Hollywood efforts.

Yeah. You made me see it while we were arguing over if John Carradine was a good Dracula or not.

One damn fine film as well I must say. The title must have slipped my eye while I was going through his IMDB page.

I'm not going to fight you on the "Batman stuff" part. I'm curious, though, when you say "stuff like Dredd," what other stuff is there?

Barbarella, obviously.:cool:

Honestly, I wrote that to cover any potential movie that I was forgetting at the time. But I really do luuuve some of those really pulpy, trashy, old comic book movies like Barbarella, Danger: Diabolik, Tarkan vs The Vikings, Yor: Hunter from the Future and of course, Riki-Oh: The Story of Ricky. But obviously the appeal of those films are pretty far-afar from stuff like Logan.

I suppose some more straight-faced examples would be Snowpiercer and Fantastic Planet.

I bet there is some Japanese movie based on some manga that I like more as well.

... I assume the unveiling of this information puts an end to our acquaintances?<45>


Just a miserable, violent son of a bitch who is no longer of this world but who can, if he can manage to convince himself to tap back into that buried remnant of a human being, help those who are of this world.

Yeah, and it's the performing of violence that ironically grants him that avenue to help and re-connect with others. In a way, "you can't change the mold" is more about Logan. He can't change from being a violent person. He can't change and go live with the little kids in the promised land. So sacrificing himself for them while protecting them is sort of the most wholesome gift he can bestow upon them.

Does it - can it - actually mean anything to Laura?

This thinking befuddles me. Why are we to assume that it doesn't mean anything to Laura? It seems pretty clear that it does. She even wants a cowboy hat for Christ sake.<45>
 
The Sopranos is SO fucking good. I didn't realize how genius it was the first time I watched it. This second viewing, WOW, I am so impressed with it's cultural and psychological commentary, how relevant it is for understanding the world.

I'm on Season 5 right now ep7 and Tony is discussing his mom, when she almost died and his dad wasn't there because he was with his mistress instead, and this was gonna be like the first time Tony ever blames his dad and feels bad for his mom and loves her... and he pauses, takes a deep breath, and says, "Fuck her." definitively right as Dr. Malfi starts talking. Like that scene IS SO GOOD.

Hannibal is like next level when it comes to personal psychology and individual existence, but Sopranos does well individually and extremely well culturally. It's so well-written.
 
I don't think this has been brought up regarding Logan.

Eden was not real correct? Laura got the idea from the X-Men comic books. So the kids made it to the border, but there is no sanctuary waiting for them on the other side, they're just going to die of exposure in the Canadian wilderness right?

Sorry if that's pessimistic.
 
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This is a very curious phenomenon. I haven't even begun to think about it, but I've noticed it whenever I've come across it. In his extraordinary book The World Viewed, Stanley Cavell literally starts his "reflections on the ontology of film" from this position.

"I have mentioned my increasing difficulty over the past several years to get myself to go to new movies. This has to do partly with an anxiousness in my response to new films I have seen (I don't at all mean I think they are bad), but equally with my anxiousness in what I feel to be new audiences for movies (not necessarily new people, but people with new reasons for being there), as though I cannot locate or remain together with my companions among them. I take this as something of more than clinical interest."

He wrote these words in 1971. I think this might be simply part of the human experience of movies, that we reach a saturation point where, to borrow a sentiment from a Genesis song, we know what we like and we like what we know. We develop an aesthetic sensibility and, at a certain point, all subsequent aesthetic experiences are measured against that sensibility. It goes without saying that we'll reject that which goes against our aesthetic sensibility.

How much our aesthetic sensibilities are determined by history, by culture, by what we're exposed to, etc., I haven't the foggiest. But, like Cavell, I think this is something of more than clinical interest.

Reminds me of this:



Ellis is right.

If I may, though...

The ideal viewing audience is one that doesn't have an aesthetic sensibility. Assuming we can define "aesthetic sensibility" as a preference for a certain kind of tone/texture, I believe it's when that doesn't matter to an audience that filmmakers can focus on what they're trying to say. The Coens and Raimi swing from comedy to slapstick to grit to screwball to thriller because they're not looking for the audience member that likes one form and not the other. Form is just a tool. Of course everyone has preferences. For instance, some people don't like animation (*cough*). But it's important that it's a mere preference. That one sees merit, at least, in both De Palma and Hitchcock because they're both saying important things.

What I think we're seeing now is people liking the form that feels good. When good content is presented in a certain way, it resonates with them. Great. The problem is their sensibilities are so tethered to that particular style of presentation that even if something is saying fuckall, they leave the cinema thinking, "That wasn't so bad." My favorite example of this is The Amazing Spider-Man/2. People had a good time at them, but nobody can quite put their finger on what's right/wrong with those films.

I can. Garfield and Stone are pretty. Their characters have absolutely no history together, but they flirt, and people like watching pretty actors flirt. That's it. The film is one big meet-cute. So Spidey can abandon the most fundamental principle imparted to him, that defines him and what he means to people, in favour of continuing to get some. I shit you not. That's what the film says in the end:



It's cinematic trolling.

Contrast with this:



The Marvel movies we talk about just do this rubbish less egregiously. One second a film (Winter Soldier) is about the government fucking around, the next it's about Nazis from another film. A film's most popular character creates an AI that fucks shit up, only to do it again, and this time what he does is create a superhero who is essentially an omnipotent Buddha (Age of Ultron). What does that say about narcissism then, if the narcissist ended up doing something good?

Have you noticed how in threads about these films, conversation is usually about how a character wasn't faithful to the comics? Or how Ultron was too weak? Or how the jokes are too Whedonesque? Or about how there's yet another city-destroying climax?

Where's the conversation about what the fuck the film is saying?

The funny thing is it's the goofy shit, the stuff with the weirdest tone, the whackiest characters, that are actually even making an attempt to be consistent with a point of view. Guardians, Iron Man 3, Thor from Marvel. The Lego films. The Wachowskis.

This of course leads us to the argument: should a film have something to say? I suppose not. But if it doesn't, what does that mean in the long-term for how writers/directors use the tools at their disposal? If they know they're going to get asses in seats anyway, how much aimlessness must we watch before we get to see that occasional gem in the rough from franchises?

(Oh and I've meant to ask a million times: can you recommend me some Cavell please?)

It was the think/feel, mind/body thing.

I confessed to being wary of the distinction between thinking and feeling. If you feel something, it's because it accords with something in your cognitive storehouse. It's not a one way street: You can articulate something and then reach a profound emotional state or you can feel something profoundly emotional and then from that feeling articulate it.

I don't like hiving the emotions off from the mind or vice-versa.

I can respond to this, but would you be able to explain to me what's in bold? In the context of talking about a film? An example, perhaps?

It makes sense. I just hope it isn't true. Your note about not lumping me in with the average moviegoer is ironic since I always have to remind myself not to think of the average moviegoer as exactly like me.



UeVdrys.jpg


So, in essence, you're saying that we approach movies from two different perspectives, which, in turn, leads us to miss or misconstrue (which is important though I'll let you clarify your own position rather than speak for you) stuff.

For me, insofar as I approach movies from a tonal perspective (is this analogous to saying that I approach movies emotionally rather than intellectually?), I go from feeling to thinking.

For you, on the other hand, insofar as you approach movies from a functional perspective (is this analogous to saying that you approach movies intellectually rather than emotionally?), you go from thinking to feeling.

I want to wait until I know I have that right before I continue.

I think the way you describe how you approach movies is more or less what I meant.

Mine is a weird thing. At some point I worked out that I was better at understanding what a movie was saying and whether it was any good when I figured out how it was working me. I've described this before to people when they're confused about my approach: A few years ago I just started questioning every single thing I felt while I was watching something. As in, I'd try and work out what happened on the screen that made me feel a certain way. Even with films that had no hold on me, that I was bored watching. I'd question why I was bored. That was especially interesting.

Soon enough, the questioning and enjoying started to happen all at once. I believe I've stagnated now though, because the next step would be to really understand technical know-how, and I'm not sure how much I'm interested in all that. For now, anyway.

So I don't know whether that's emotional or intellectual. More a matter of increasing my awareness? Wish I could explain it better. It's how I got the point of not really hating anything on screen.

If we're to believe in the power of prognostication possessed by @chickenluver, it's going to happen and soon :eek:

Too little too late.

I'll take Wolverine destroying motherfuckers over not seeing a guy get a pencil in his eye :cool:

Fair enough. LOL. But you see what I mean right? Why it's so effective that people just know it as "the pencil scene"?

The Sopranos is SO fucking good. I didn't realize how genius it was the first time I watched it. This second viewing, WOW, I am so impressed with it's cultural and psychological commentary, how relevant it is for understanding the world.

I'm on Season 5 right now ep7 and Tony is discussing his mom, when she almost died and his dad wasn't there because he was with his mistress instead, and this was gonna be like the first time Tony ever blames his dad and feels bad for his mom and loves her... and he pauses, takes a deep breath, and says, "Fuck her." definitively right as Dr. Malfi starts talking. Like that scene IS SO GOOD.

Hannibal is like next level when it comes to personal psychology and individual existence, but Sopranos does well individually and extremely well culturally. It's so well-written.

GOAT SHOW.

After Buffy.

(Ducks for cover)

Seriously though.

@Dragonlordxxxxx
 
Do I need to see force awakens before I see rogue one?
 
Just watched Ghost in the Shell. It's really beautifully done. Not only was I surprised to like it, I was shocked to love it. Probably the best movie released in at least a few years.
 
I'll re-post my Ghost in the Shell thoughts in here that I wrote in the official thread.

---

I actually thought this film was very good. In certain respects it's more of a sci-fi drama than an action movie. Certainly a hell of a lot better than the abysmalness of Lucy, for instance. I really like that it was a more visually-driven film.


I wanted to talk a bit about the theme of this film in comparison to the original. Now, I haven't seen the original in over a decade so the old thinking-machine might be a bit rusty but here goes.

The original is more about existentialism and artificiality. That is to say, if you are an artificial being, are you then really "real"? Do you really exist? What kind of an existence are you? What is the value/purpose/nature of your existence? What is the relation between existence and the machine? That sort of more abstract, philosophical stuff.

I think that in this film, the theme is more aligned with the question, "if you are artificial, what does that say about your emotionalism, intimacy, nostalgia for home, and yearning for a place in the world"? That is to say, your feelings. At several points in the movie, Major muses on the difference between organic and artificial. She questionly touches the prostitutes organic lips. The mother says that her daughter thought that we we're losing our humanity due to the robotics. And notice the tensed pause on Major as the prisoner asks if she has any children, she being momentarily perturbed by the reminder that she cannot have those things. And so on with the examples.

I wouldn't say that 2017 Ghost in the Shell is great or anything, but I thought it did this theme rather well. And it's a subtle but decisive shift from the original. Moving away from the question of existentialism and artificiality, towards the question of artificiality and emotionalism. So the movie stays in the same wheelhouse yet explores another avenue of the original theme.


Some bad things...

Having Takeshi being the only one speaking Japanese was just dumb.

Some of the CGI was pretty uninspired. Alongside that, a lot of the "cityskape" visuals felt more off-putting than awe-inspiring (yet that may very well have been the intended effect).
 
I went to see The Lost City of Z the other day. It was alright, but nothing special. It had a lot of potential and there were some very good parts, but it had a lot of things which dragged it down. Charlie Hunnam was ok at best, wasn't sold on his performance, but I thought Robert Pattinson was excellent. The scenes that were actually set in the jungle were good, clear throwback to the likes of Aguirre and Fitzcarraldo (they even have an opera stage in the jungle which was an obvious homage). The problem is that the film tries to do too much and fill in the entire back story, ie. fill in the context for the jungle scenes with scenes back in England of the main characters military aspirations, his family, the ridicule he faced for believing their might be ruins of an old civilisation in the jungle etc. They even have a bunch of pointless WW1 scenes. Obviously I get why you need to do explain things like that, but they should have tried to reveal it naturally through the film instead of shoving it in the audiences face. Instead of creating a generation spanning epic, which they must have tried to do, the whole thing just fell flat. The horrendously cringe worthy dialogue didn't help either.

On a more positive note I watched Walkabout a few weeks ago which was fantastic. On the one hand a good coming of age story, and good enough in that respect. Obviously you have the aborigine boy who is on his walkabout, or his rite of passage, but then you have Jenny Agutter's character growing from a schoolgirl into a woman. Not the sort of thing you'd get away with nowadays but there was a lot of sexual tension in the film and even a nude scene (tastefully done lol) even though I believe she was only 17 or 18 when the film was made. The event that launches the film off (no spoilers) and the cynical contrasts between modern living and the ancient aboriginal way of life made it an extremely interesting film though.
 
Having Takeshi being the only one speaking Japanese was just dumb.
Does he speak Japanese to the other characters yet they understand him and answer back in English? If so that's hilarious.
I went to see The Lost City of Z the other day.
I can't get over that fact that the guy left instructions that if he never came back no one should go looking for him...and yet dozens of people went looking for him and died in the jungle.
On a more positive note I watched Walkabout a few weeks ago which was fantastic.
Did you see The Proposition with Guy Pierce and Ray Winston? The indigenous boy from Walkabout has a smallish role. He has a very interesting life story. He was raised traditionally in the Australian bush.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gulpilil
 
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Does he speak Japanese to the other characters yet they understand him and answer back in English? If so that's hilarious.

Precisely.

It's all the more enraging since it muddles what I thought was a suprisingly good film.
 
I can't get over that fact that the guy left instructions that if he never came back no one should go looking for him...and yet dozens of people went looking for him and died in the jungle.

Did you see The Proposition with Guy Pierce and Ray Winston? The indigenous boy from Walkabout has a smallish role. He has a very interesting life story. He was raised traditionally in the Australian bush.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gulpilil

No never seen The Proposition, sounds interesting though I will have to check it out! Not surprised that the boy was actually raised traditionally though, he was very convincing in that role.
 
Forgot to say that I also watched Split the other day, but I didn't have much to say other than that I thought it was fairly shite. McAvoy was good though.
 
Oh I've been working my way through the Alan Ladd filmography ever since seeing Shane for sure. He's one of those actors that I just instantly like no matter the performance.

A well-placed assumption, then :D

They did Saigon togheter as well, btw.

That one has somehow eluded me.

This Gun for Hire is on my "bloody magnificent" list, which is a ranking just below the elated GOAT minoris and GOAT majoris categories. So yeah I do love it pretty darn much. Veronica's character in that movie is one of my favorite heroines in film history and Alan Ladd is just fantastic as well. I do really wish she had been gifted more roles like that one.

Never seen Blue Dahlia. The Glass Key is very good though. Ladd got beat up pretty badly in that one. Veronica was painfully underused, however, barely a presence at all.

I'd rank them This Gun for Hire, The Glass Key, and The Blue Dahlia, but even though The Blue Dahlia is third out of three on my list, that doesn't mean it isn't still really cool. The ending might feel a bit rushed (at least that's what I have in my memory) but Ladd gets some clutch help from his supporting cast, especially the always awesome William Bendix.

The Shop Around the Corner is one of the best of it's kind, IMO.

Nah. The scripts aren't bad (most of his hits were written by the same guy and he wasn't bad at putting a story together) but I'm immune to the "Lubitsch Touch." I'll take Cukor, Hawks, Stevens, Capra, or McCarey every day of the week.

Travolta of Serbia? Yeah that's a pretty apt comparison.
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I thought Killing Seasons was at least sort-of watchable but it sure-did fail to achieve what it was going for.

Yes, Travolta of Serbia. I'd agree with the "at least sort of watchable" label but I knew going in that it'd be very low quality shit and it was.

I assume the unveiling of this information puts an end to our acquaintances?

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This thinking befuddles me. Why are we to assume that it doesn't mean anything to Laura? It seems pretty clear that it does. She even wants a cowboy hat for Christ sake.

I don't know. I'm pretty far removed from the initial experience now, so it's hard connecting back up with what I was feeling, but I just felt that something wasn't right, that Laura was being used to facilitate a meaningful connection that we were capable of making as viewers but that she wasn't capable of making as a character.

Perhaps I was just looking for someone to tell me I was worrying for nothing.

The Sopranos is SO fucking good. I didn't realize how genius it was the first time I watched it. This second viewing, WOW, I am so impressed with it's cultural and psychological commentary, how relevant it is for understanding the world.

As someone who struggled for a long time (and occasionally still struggles) with anxiety, I have a particularly strong connection to Tony. I identify so much with the "What ever happened to Gary Cooper?" line. It captures perfectly that twin sentiment of, on the one hand, "There must be someone out there who's put together correctly," and, on the other, "I wonder what it'd feel like if I'd been put together correctly."

Eden was not real correct? Laura got the idea from the X-Men comic books. So the kids made it to the border, but there is no sanctuary waiting for them on the other side, they're just going to die of exposure in the Canadian wilderness right?

Sorry if that's pessimistic.

Eden wasn't real in the sense that she didn't show up and immediately start skipping down the Yellow Brick Road. But it was real in the sense that it fueled not just her but several like-minded people and inspired them to come together for a common cause and commit themselves to making something out of nothing.

It's a testament to romanticism and the perfect answer to skeptics and nihilists (like Logan). It's not "real" in the straw man sense of a fantasy land where all hardship and negativity is magically erased from the human experience but it is real in the profoundly human sense of driving us to be the best versions of ourselves.

@Dragonlordxxxxx Ricky? europe? What say you?

Alright I lol'd at the "basement business" thing.

I get what the response should be to that, yet I still feel like Jerry in The Pony Remark: Am I wrong?

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Assuming we can define "aesthetic sensibility" as a preference for a certain kind of tone/texture

If this is what we're working from, then I agree with what you're saying, but for me, "aesthetic sensibility" encompasses more than just tone/texture. That'd be more "formal sensibility." Aesthetic sensibility would also encompass elements of plot and character if not going all the way up to and including larger moral/philosophical perspectives.

What I think we're seeing now is people liking the form that feels good. When good content is presented in a certain way, it resonates with them. Great. The problem is their sensibilities are so tethered to that particular style of presentation that even if something is saying fuckall, they leave the cinema thinking, "That wasn't so bad."

The flip side to this coin is when a film is about something "deep" and people go crazy for it even if the experience of the film sucks. It's all about that balance.

This of course leads us to the argument: should a film have something to say? I suppose not.

Your position would seem to be that it should. People are often wary of saying things like "a film must have something to say" for fear of being fascists and stifling artistic expression, but people shouldn't be wary of saying things like "a film should have something to say." That opens the door to conversation and debate since "should" implies reasons, typically of both moral and aesthetic varieties.

(Oh and I've meant to ask a million times: can you recommend me some Cavell please?)

For film theory/philosophy, The World Viewed: Reflections on the Ontology of Film. It gets a little esoteric, but that's due more to Cavell's style and less to any kind of jargon issues. And, if you're inclined to read this one, try to get your hands on the expanded edition from 1979. The addendum, "More of The World Viewed," is one of my favorite things Cavell's ever written.

For philosophy/film criticism, Pursuits of Happiness: The Hollywood Comedy of Remarriage and Contesting Tears: The Hollywood Melodrama of the Unknown Woman. He gets pretty far out on some pretty flimsy limbs in analyzing the films he does, but whether he says something that makes you wonder if he even watched the right movie or whether he hits the nail so perfectly on the head that it makes you wonder how you could've missed the nail by so much, every page will have you thinking.

And then, if you're feeling bored and like you have an endless amount of free time and tons of unused brain cells, Must We Mean What We Say? is a great compilation of philosophical essays, many of which touch on issues in aesthetics, while The Claim of Reason is simply my favorite philosophical text.

I can respond to this, but would you be able to explain to me what's in bold? In the context of talking about a film? An example, perhaps?

Sure. The emotion-to-reason route is a matter of introspection: "I feel x, but I don't know why or what it means." The reason-to-emotion route isn't quite as linear. The best example I can think of is Inception. From that first viewing through the many subsequent times I watched it in theaters (not to mention the dozens of times I've watched my Blu-ray), I could just straight-up feel what an important movie it was to me. Everything about it just resonated with me, and even though I couldn't articulate the depths of its profundity very well (and I tried to do it on here a lot at the time), I at least knew, emotionally, that it was profound.

For some people, that's enough ("Don't think, feel..."). For me, that's never enough. I want to know why I feel what I feel, what it means (about the film, about the filmmaker, and about myself). Over the years, particularly through reading Cavell and his discussion of the "problem" of skepticism (in both of its variants, namely skepticism of the external world and skepticism of other minds), I started to get better at articulating the philosophical perspective on existence that seemed to make the most sense, the way of being in the world (to invoke Heidegger, a favorite of Cavell's though not of mine) or the form of life (to invoke Wittgenstein, another favorite of Cavell's and also a favorite of mine) that seemed the most conducive to a happy and fulfilling experience on earth.

Then I went back to Inception. Through no introspective efforts, without even considering Inception alongside Cavell, I started to see in Inception what I saw in Cavell (and Wittgenstein), that same perspective on existence and living. I finally understood why I was so drawn to Inception, what it was about it that I found so moving, and when I was able to articulate that, the feeling of watching Inception morphed and became something I'd call transcendent. Just sticking with introspection, I might never have been able to access those emotions and articulate those feelings, but in the realm of "pure reason," I found another route to my emotions.

Either way, the fact of the matter is that any separation of reason and the emotions has to be metaphorical or purely for heuristic purposes, because in our actual lived experience, there is no separation.

(Then again, Caveat can speak more to the psychological aspects of this shit, so if my philosophy-speak is leading me to trample on psychological tenets that contradict my claims, please let me know.)

Mine is a weird thing. At some point I worked out that I was better at understanding what a movie was saying and whether it was any good when I figured out how it was working me. I've described this before to people when they're confused about my approach: A few years ago I just started questioning every single thing I felt while I was watching something. As in, I'd try and work out what happened on the screen that made me feel a certain way. Even with films that had no hold on me, that I was bored watching. I'd question why I was bored. That was especially interesting.

Trust me when I tell you that you would love the work of David Bordwell. His book Narration in the Fiction Film will have you hard for all 357 pages :D

He explains his perspective - which sounds like your perspective - in a later book entitled Making Meaning:

"Most broadly and basically, I suggest that the questions of composition, function, and effect that interpretive criticism sets out to answer are most directly addressed and best answered by a self-conscious historical poetics of cinema. I conceive this as the study of how, in determinate circumstances, films are put together, serve specific functions, and achieve specific effects [...] Most textual effects are the result of deliberate and founding choices, and these affect form, style, and different sorts of meaning. Just as a poet's use of iambic pentameter or sonnet form is unlikely to be involuntary, so the filmmaker's decisions about camera placement, performance, or editing constitute relatively stable creative acts whose situational logic can be investigated [...] As a historian of forms, genres, and styles, the poetician starts from the concrete assumptions embedded in the filmmaker's craft. Sometimes these are articulated by practitioners; sometimes they must be inferred from the product and the mode of production. The poetician aims to analyze the conceptual and empirical factors - norms, traditions, habits - that govern a practice and its products. Poetics thus offers explanations, of an intentionalist, functionalist, or causal sort."

Fair enough. LOL. But you see what I mean right? Why it's so effective that people just know it as "the pencil scene"?

To borrow from Bordwell, I understand the "situational logic" of that particular "creative act." I'm just not a fan of Nolan's PG-style violence. I took my dad to see both The Dark Knight and Inception in theaters, and after Inception, he commented on how he liked Nolan's style of action, how when people get shot in his films they just drop and the action moves on rather than having their brains get blown out or them fall down in a pool of blood. That's the part I don't like. That's not to say that I need buckets of blood for a movie to be enjoyable, but when I can feel how tame a certain filmmaker is, it can bother me, and in this respect (virtually the only respect, which says a lot for him), Nolan bothers me.

On the flip side, there wasn't anything tame about Logan, yet at the same time, it wasn't over-the-top. It was simply, straightforwardly, unabashedly "This is what it looks like when a dude with claws stabs somebody in the face."
 
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