Serious Movie Discussion XLII

[HUNTERMANIA]

Watching The Borgias and IDK, it's OK, I'm able to keep watching it which is more than I can say for most movies/shows, but literally every scene has sex in it, which is annoying - it's like they're trying to make up for the lack of nudity by having everyone make-out in bed every 5 minutes. Hopefully this trend doesn't continue and there is something more interesting to come. I feel like the story has potential.

I also saw this Isaac Newton quote

which reminds me of the scene in Pi when Max is on the beach, looking at the ocean of truth, frustrated, while another man comes along with a metal detector picking up new trinkets, which inspires Max to go back on his search, ignoring the ocean of truth in front of him. I'm pretty sure that scene was based off of this quote, at least, I identified it as such without knowing the quote.

 

[chickenluver]

Silence: I might be the only guy that likes Scorsese's last two films more than most of his work. Silence is meditative. Exploratory. Will likely end up one of the best films about matters of faith ever made. Also the 2016 film most likely to stimulate conversation in the long run. It's just fun watching the masters do their thing to ask questions, compared to more pointed theses (Goodfellas).

Goodfellas and Casino were the Scorseses that Wolf of Wall Street seemed to be compared to a lot, and I liked it better than both of them. Definitely one of my favorite of his overall.

Silence isn't playing in my city yet for some stupid reason, but my expectations for it are sky fucking high. If it's anything less than my favorite Scorsese movie, and my favorite film of the year it will have failed to meet my expectations. Seriously.

So I can't fully agree with you as of yet but I expect to.

The late careers of many film directors in general don't seem to garner the praise as the early stuff, and I find I tend not to agree. I think Full Metal Jacket and Eyes Wide Shut, Kubrick's last two, are among his very best, certainly better than his first two.

 

[chickenluver]

Watching The Borgias and IDK, it's OK

You should ditch that show and watch Borgia instead.

 

[HUNTERMANIA]

You should ditch that show and watch Borgia instead.

Yeah? How many seasons is there to it?

 

[chickenluver]

Yeah? How many seasons is there to it?

Three.

I actually shouldn't compare the two since I've not actually seen The Borgias, but I thought Borgia was a good watch. The only thing I read about the difference is that The Borgias has much less sex and violence. So maybe one is toned down or the other is gratuitous depending on how you want to look at it. Maybe both are true.

Funny thing was I had heard of The Borgias and I'm a Jeremy Irons fan so I started watching Borgia thinking it was the other show. All reviews I found that directly compared the two favored Borgia, so I didn't the need to watch another show that covered the same subject matter/time period right away, but I may get to it some day since Borgia and his kids are really interesting characters.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

So what's been said about Arrival so far? I liked it and want to talk about it but I'm not sure where to start.

Well gosh darn-it, Arrival was really fascinating!

I loved it's hard sci-fi approach to everything. Something has to be said about how thoroughly tense this film is. Villeneuve just kept me at the edge of my seat for almost the entire running time. Really an original experience, or at least it felt like it.

So many films try to "awe" you these days. They try to tell you that they are seriouss business. Try and present themselves as some sort of epic benchmark. Arrival doesn't need that. It's awe-inspiring on the craft alone.

For me, it's the frontrunner for best film of the year, toppling Hacksaw Ridge.

That's a really concise way of putting it actually. I felt like I knew I was going to like the film only a few scenes in, something about it just felt so properly proportioned - like it was very aware of the route it was bringing you down but still cognizant about filling you in with all the necessary plot and character details along the way.

Even in the final few scenes I kept thinking "as long as no one says anything stupid now this is going to close really nicely," and of course someone did and I had to shake my head, but the overall enjoyment of the experience was preserved

 

[HUNTERMANIA]

Three.

I actually shouldn't compare the two since I've not actually seen The Borgias, but I thought Borgia was a good watch. The only thing I read about the difference is that The Borgias has much less sex and violence. So maybe one is toned down or the other is gratuitous depending on how you want to look at it. Maybe both are true.

Funny thing was I had heard of The Borgias and I'm a Jeremy Irons fan so I started watching Borgia thinking it was the other show. All reviews I found that directly compared the two favored Borgia, so I didn't the need to watch another show that covered the same subject matter/time period right away, but I may get to it some day since Borgia and his kids are really interesting characters.

I've decided I like Jeremy Irons in this role enough to finish this show, but I'll definitely check out Borgia next. I give this show my recommendation if you liked the other - I heard it's nowhere near as gory as that one, and it has almost no nudity, it watches like a racy network TV show not a showtime show, but IDK, I'm able to watch it and enjoy it well enough. It's not the greatest thing ever, but it might be worth a try.

 

[Ricky13]

That's something that just hit me in a conversation I was having about the film today. Of everything I've heard about the weaknesses of the analogy between the two stories I'm surprised I haven't seen more about the audacity of employing a (female) rape analogy to represent (male) emotional turmoil.

It's a little cheeky, to put it lightly. It's also probably why the initial impression I had of the book was that it was an act of aggression toward Susan.

It's problematic at the very least, fucked up at worst. But apart from the politics of using rape shorthand to elicit male emotion, I think it renders the overarching narrative ever-so-slightly obscure. The choice to allow the wife in the book no emotion apart from panic, and no arc outside of inevitable death, just plain affects the parable. There's no need for the two stories to be in perfect sync, because that would defeat the purpose of allowing the viewer the chance to "seek" the congruence. But Jesus, it's hard to work off, for a viewer, when the very purpose of the novel wife is as a rape punching bag. What the fuck? I think it's one of the main reasons I began to trail off mentally towards the end. The two stories began to diverge more and more from the film's thrust.

The real comparison ends up being between new and old Susan itself, which I think would have made for a more classic film. There's a good story there all by itself; Susan has a genuine arc, as does Edward. Ford's use of the novel, with distance, ends up looking more and more like a shock gimmick.

Goodfellas and Casino were the Scorseses that Wolf of Wall Street seemed to be compared to a lot, and I liked it better than both of them. Definitely one of my favorite of his overall.

Silence isn't playing in my city yet for some stupid reason, but my expectations for it are sky fucking high. If it's anything less than my favorite Scorsese movie, and my favorite film of the year it will have failed to meet my expectations. Seriously.

So I can't fully agree with you as of yet but I expect to.

Just so you know, in a technical sense, it's his least flashy film. Not sure if that will affect you. Kinetically, it's the polar opposite of Wolf. Lots of very still footage. Shot-reverse-shot. Because the details are in conversation and non-snappy dialogue. It's a great choice, because when the inevitable slow-mos happen, they pack a punch.

As I said earlier, the masters know just when to turn something on or off.

 

[europe1]

Even in the final few scenes I kept thinking "as long as no one says anything stupid now this is going to close really nicely," and of course someone did and I had to shake my head,

What excactly was it? Did it remind you of The Accountant in some way?

but the overall enjoyment of the experience was preserved

It is interesting that in Arrival, the aliens aren't trying to impart some message or piece of technology, like in most films. Instead they try to impart an cognitive development, like in 2001. But in 2001, they did so through kickstarting evolution with the black monoliths (culminating in the star-child in the end), while in Arrival, they speed-up mankind's cognitive development through understanding a new language that enables them to conceptualize new things (ie: time).

 

[HUNTERMANIA]

@chickenluver lol 5 minutes in to Borgia I can already see the quality difference (in favor of this show, not the one I watched). However, I don't regret watching The Borgias - it had some entertaining aspects, but I can already tell this show will be much better.


4 episodes in and this show is fucking nuts compared to the other one. I don't recommend you watch the other one anymore, lmao, I mean, IDK, you might find it entertaining but this show is a lot more wild than that one. Cesare looks and acts a lot more evil in this... Lucrezia was hotter and crazier in The Borgias, and I can't tell much about her character her, but the portrayal of women in general seems more accurate in this.

 

[chickenluver]

@chickenluver lol 5 minutes in to Borgia I can already see the quality difference (in favor of this show, not the one I watched). However, I don't regret watching The Borgias - it had some entertaining aspects, but I can already tell this show will be much better.


4 episodes in and this show is fucking nuts compared to the other one. I don't recommend you watch the other one anymore, lmao, I mean, IDK, you might find it entertaining but this show is a lot more wild than that one. Cesare looks and acts a lot more evil in this... Lucrezia was hotter and crazier in The Borgias, and I can't tell much about her character her, but the portrayal of women in general seems more accurate in this.

lel yeah it's a pretty crazy show. Despite all the sex and violence it never really feels over-the-top or unrealistic. I think the cast is great too, although I guess some people didn't like how there are a wide variety of different accents, basically everyone speaks in their natural accent even if their character should have a different one. The most hilarious example is John Doman as Rodrigo Borgia speaking in a modern American accent while playing a Spanish man in the middle of Renaissance era Italy lmao. I was never bothered by it though.

Sometimes the narrative plays out in really strange ways and I'm left thinking this can't be true to history, but then when I look up the historical record the real events were the same or sometimes even stranger.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Forgot to post about Silence after seeing it the other day.

I almost feel bad or guilty for this, since I wanted to like it (and it sounded like exactly the sort of film I would like) but I wasn't particularly impressed...it wasn't bad by any means but I was expecting a lot more based on some of the early hype around it. Read some reviews calling it a masterpiece. But then after I watched it I looked up some other reviews to see if other people felt similarly to me, and there are definitely others who were not as enamoured with it. For me it was just 'ok', it didn't really leave any great imprint on me, but neither was it a terrible film. Some of the acting was a bit iffy, particularly Andrew Garfield...never seen him in anything else that I can think of, so maybe he is good in other films, but it struck me as 'over-acting' if you know what I mean. His supposed Portuguese accent was fairly dreadful too. Adam Driver was a lot better I thought, I also liked Tadanobu Asano's character (the translator). But more importantly, I was just expecting a lot more based on the plot. I was hoping for something really interesting. Naturally there is a lot of stuff that could be explored there, ie. religious faith in the face of persecution, doubt about a silent God, the nature of martyrdom and the contrast with another religious system (Buddhism). Obviously the film does go into this stuff, but I just didn't find it particularly thought-provoking, rather than feeling in any way spiritual or transcendent the film just felt kind of flat and boring to me...I can't quite put my finger on why, not to say there were no good scenes or nothing interesting in the film (the pride of the priests and their sacrifice was one aspect), but I just found it quite dull.
Plus some of the scenes nearly made my eyes roll into the back of my skull...

Spoiler

Like the scene where God literally speaks to Garfield's character through voice over when he is about to step on the image of Christ, or the annoying character of Kichijiro who I just found to be extremely boring and uninteresting, or the ending funeral scene with his wife placing the cross on him...it was just so obvious that you could see it coming a mile away

There is a lot of voice over for example which is I thought was unnecessary. From a cinematography and visuals point of view it looked excellent but that was not enough to make up for the film as a whole. Of course this is just my opinion, plenty of people seem to love it, but for whatever reason it just didn't click with me, even though I figured it was going to be something I would love...

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Any of you have YouTube channels you recommend? I find YouTube useful when I want to learn about something but don't have the willpower to sift through any more text.

Been enjoying this guy's short video essays lately:

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

What excactly was it? Did it remind you of The Accountant in some way?

Haha, no not at all. The quote was

Spoiler

Renner's little bit about how he was more surprised to find Adams than the aliens. Puh-leeeeeeze.

I prefer to be spared from the portrayal of completely attractive and charming characters as lonely social outcasts.

It is interesting that in Arrival, the aliens aren't trying to impart some message or piece of technology, like in most films. Instead they try to impart an cognitive development, like in 2001. But in 2001, they did so through kickstarting evolution with the black monoliths (culminating in the star-child in the end), while in Arrival, they speed-up mankind's cognitive development through understanding a new language that enables them to conceptualize new things (ie: time).

Shamefully I have yet to see 2001 so I'm not sure how much I can comment - but it certainly did seem like they were trying to impart technology in some sense, which the film displayed through variations in word association when translating the alien language ("use weapon" being the most significant product of that translation).

Maybe it's a little shallow but I couldn't stop thinking of Arrival as Interstellar for chicks: domestic instead of exploratory, linguistic instead of science-y, cyclic instead of linear, compromising instead of domineering.

I'm still trying to piece this detail into the whole, but what did you think of:

Spoiler

Louise's choice to have a child with Ian knowing the child would die prematurely? If any part of me was trying to keep from gendering the whole film, that shot at male insecurity re: details of paternity shut down any resistance I had left.

I was trying to figure out if she had to go through with child-bearing in order to enable the events of the past (events we saw in the film) but that got me way too close to some deep philosophical issues about time and causality I really didn't feel like dealing with.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Any of you have YouTube channels you recommend? I find YouTube useful when I want to learn about something but don't have the willpower to sift through any more text.

Been enjoying this guy's short video essays lately:

Yeah, I really like that channel. Earlier I watched some of this guys stuff -



And this is one of my favourite channels -

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Yeah, I really like that channel. Earlier I watched some of this guys stuff -



And this is one of my favourite channels -

These look great, thanks!

I forgot how much I enjoyed watching Stalker last year.

 

[Mondo Freaks]

Is there a Golden Globes thread? @Dragonlordxxxxx

LA LA land looks to have a good night

 

[europe1]

Haha, no not at all. The quote was

For me, the movie earned that. If the movie is good enough then lines like that become lovable instead of cringy.

Shamefully I have yet to see 2001

Maybe it's a little shallow but I couldn't stop thinking of Arrival as Interstellar for chicks: domestic instead of exploratory, linguistic instead of science-y, cyclic instead of linear, compromising instead of domineering.

Good one.

but it certainly did seem like they were trying to impart technology in some sense, which the film displayed through variations in word association when translating the alien language ("use weapon" being the most significant product of that translation).

Spoiler

Well the phrase "use weapon" was an attempt by them into spurring Louise to use her newly-attuned powers to see into the future. It isn't a "technology" in the sense that it's some sort of item that they can use. Louise's clairvoyance is an cognitive function, and ability that she possesses through her mental state. She grasps time the same way we grasp vision, because the aliens language has allowed her to conceptualize -- and therefore understand -- thing that our mental states are not conscious of. These concepts has allowed her to unveil a whole other part of how existence functions and works.

The whole "Sapir-Whorf effect" is something I find very fascinating, btw. How concepts and language determine how we think and feel. That something I can relate to a lot in my life-experience. Just being made conscious of new concepts can make one understand and comprehend everything in life on a whole new level. So expanding it into some sort of superpower is a-okay with me.

I'm still trying to piece this detail into the whole, but what did you think of:

Spoiler

I fear I can't say much of note on it.

Obviously it''s a "better to have love and lost than never loved at all" affirmation.

It's clear that Louise's life lacks a purpose in the early parts of the film. Aliens make landfall on earth and what does she do? She goes to work! That shows how emotionally disconnected she is from the world.

I suppose that her ability to see all of her time-stream at once makes her realize the importance of love and intimacy. Comprehending her entire life in one moment makes her realize how important those grand moments are. Seeing all your life at once unveils objectively excactly what is important in life.

In other words...

 

[Rimbaud82]

@Caveat what did you make of those videos? Did you watch anymore, haven't watched any of the first guys, but Channel Criswell has a lot of good ones.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

@Caveat what did you make of those videos? Did you watch anymore, haven't watched any of the first guys, but Channel Criswell has a lot of good ones.

Can't say much more right now over mobile, but I enjoyed them and each channel has a bunch more I wanted to watch right that second but couldn't.

They also prompted this one, which made my fucking day today I liked it so much. This video is my whole way of life in a nutshell, like @HUNTERMANIA's Black Swan. Plus I love all these shows, especially The Office (American) and Rick and Morty.