Senator Kirsten Gillibrand (D) Introduces Bill: Border Patrol+ICE Must Document Every Stop

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by waiguoren, May 14, 2018.

  1. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

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    ICE was created in 2003, and I hadn't seen videos of this earlier. It seems like a very human response to the kind of stomach-turning videos I posted. I guess you have trouble relating because you think it's good that the gov't can literally bust your door down and point guns at your kids if you're suspected of committing a non-violent, victimless crime and they don't immediately let agents in with no indication that they have a right to be there.

    But you are assuming a motive and language that is not in evidence, are you not?
     
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  2. 7437

    7437 Gold Belt

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    This attitude is why Micah Johnson was an American hero.
     
  3. Kframe

    Kframe Brown Belt

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    I will never understand your sides desire to hamper border and immigration enforcement.

    Secondly they are fully human. However, as your side refuses to believe, not all illegals are nice and upstanding. Thus I am in favor of law enforcement doing what ever they feel is necessary to keep themselves safe. Lastly, they would not have been in that position in the first place had they not broken the law. Period.
     
  4. Kframe

    Kframe Brown Belt

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    What do you mean by more pressing concerns? That we should relax border enforcement?
     
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Brown Belt

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    How hard is it for these people to stop breaking the law? Just follow the god damn law and you wont have guns pointed at you.. Seems simple enough..
     
  6. Kframe

    Kframe Brown Belt

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    If liberals are involved, it is a safe bet it will be burdensome to law enforcement.
     
  7. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

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    There is no desire to hamper border and immigration enforcement. I think that it's possible to enforce immigration restrictions without asshole cops busting doors down and pointing big guns in the faces of little girls. I don't see any enforcement-based defense. It's just about a desire to show cruelty to people who have too much pigment in their skin.

    What law do you think the 10-year-old girl holding the camera broke that justified that?

    Just as you cannot understand why some people would oppose that kind of thing, I cannot relate to someone being OK with it. I think there is a serious lack of basic decency on the right these days. Imagine it was a white family being treated like that if it helps reach your human core.

    So this is silly, but not unexpected. But @waiguoren denies that he thinks in extreme tribalist terms. Something doesn't add up there.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  8. Kframe

    Kframe Brown Belt

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    Their you go assuming it has to do with race or skin color. My hatred of them stems solely from the fact that they are invaders who broke the law. Skipped the prescribed line ahead of people doing it the correct way. Come in, get fake id's and sponge our tax money. They are criminals. That is why I hate them. I also dislike their culture as well.
     
  9. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

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    So, first "invader" is not accurate. Second, the people who were dealing with the gov't thugs were not even suspected of having broken any laws. Third, why would you hate them? This is the problem I have with you guys. You hate everything. Hollywood, the gov't, New York, the media, Chicago, minorities and liberals (i.e., a big portion of the population of the nation), low-income workers, colleges--everything that makes America great and what it is. There are a lot of other countries out there that you guys can mess up if you hate this one so much. Or maybe you should look inward and realize that you really hate yourself, and you're right to, and you should make an effort to get better.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  10. Fawlty

    Fawlty Deep State Shadow Wolf

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    We don't really need increased enforcement, because immigration is at acceptable levels. I'm conceding that Gillibrand's idea would add man-hours to the job (though not that much), so we would have to add people to the job to maintain current enforcement. Going forward, tech and procedures will improve, so the same man hours will accomplish even more. I don't think it's a serious problem, and it's clearly getting better and has been for years.
     
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  11. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

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    And one would think that if very basic oversight is too much work for the current agents to handle, a simple solution would be to just add a few more. I doubt anyone who supports increased oversight would oppose that (and if so, maybe then nutters could break out the accusation that it's about slowing the work down).
     
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  12. waiguoren

    waiguoren Red Belt

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    So now you're labeling me an authoritarian. A few months ago, you labeled me a libertarian. I can't be both. Maybe you should try to label people less frequently and focus on faithfully engaging on the facts.

    That's totally irrelevant here. Before ICE we had the INS. The INS was carrying out the same kind of raids long before 2003.

    Are you looking for an emotional response?

    What do you expect will happen when law enforcement has a warrant for someone's arrest and is denied entry?

    I have a point of reference from my personal life. When I was 13 years old our doorbell rang. I walked to the front door and peered out the small window on the side. I was looking at fully fledged SWAT team about one foot from my face. I can't remember if I opened the door or if they opened it, but they immediately pushed me to the floor and tied my hands behind my back with some kind of plastic tie, then found my mother and little sister and did the same to them. There were 10 to 12 of them in full gear, all with assault rifles.

    As in your clip, the team was looking for a criminal on a non-violent charge (in my case, drug trafficking). Like the target in the video you posted, the target in my situation also had a prior battery conviction. Also in my situation, the target was known to have acquired firearms illegally. I suppose that's why the local police sent the SWAT team instead of the relatively less advanced kind of team from your video.

    Emotions will be different between different kinds of people. I stayed pretty cool the whole time but my mom and sister were crying and really shaken up.

    So instead of focusing on the emotion of the situation as you have, please explain what the ICE team should have done differently. Should they have asked really really nicely for the mother to open the door? Should they have camped out on the front porch until the family needed to go out for food?


    Given the above anecdote, I'm guessing I can relate better than you can. ICE was searching for a man with a prior felony conviction, known to be in the country illegally, and who had a record of 16 (!) prior deportations.

    No, I don't think it's a "good thing" that the government can pry open your front door, but I view it as a necessary evil in this situation. I'm open to changing my mind if you can present an alternative solution.

    And again, the video does not show ICE officers pointing guns at children.

    We seem to differ on the meaning of "assume". To me, there is an important difference between a "suspicion" and an "assumption". I do not assume Gillibrand's motives, but I suspect her of having motives unrelated to policy given her history and the upcoming attacks she will need to fend off. I'm not ruling out the possibility that she also thinks the provisions of her bill are desirable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
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  13. waiguoren

    waiguoren Red Belt

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    What is the evidence that I am a tribalist?
     
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  14. solmu

    solmu Orange Belt

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    Crazy that they don't have to do this already. It's a good idea but in that case they should heavily increase border patrol and immigration enforcement agent numbers. Documentation takes up a lot of time and decreases time spent on other tasks like patrolling the border.
     
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  15. waiguoren

    waiguoren Red Belt

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    The man from Jack's video had been deported 16 times previously and still found his way back. Is that not a sign that our border is not secure? If the border is not secure, isn't increased enforcement desirable?
     
  16. waiguoren

    waiguoren Red Belt

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    Exactly. There is a balance that has to be reached. Experienced ICE/CBP agents should be interviewed directly before this type of legislation is passed, so that the bill can be refined. It's disturbing how many people are cheering this on without having seen the bill's text. To my knowledge, the bill's text isn't even available yet.
     
  17. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

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    You're an authoritarian, consistently. Also, right-wing libertarianism is an authoritarian ideology.

    I think anyone would have one unless they have some kind of ideology shutting off their empathy switch.

    Yeah, that's pretty fucking horrible, too. I also oppose the war on drugs.

    Yes, they should have talked to the mother like a human and worked it out. Explained their reason for being there and that they had authority and explained calmly what they wanted. They were way too quick to just start busting in with guns drawn.

    The thing is, the story is about the idea. If we can all agree that ICE needs more (some) oversight, this sounds like a good step. If you later find flaws in the actual bill as written, that's another discussion.
     
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  18. Ice That Jaw

    Ice That Jaw Red Belt

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    How the fuck do you document these people? By their height, weight, and the fake name they give you? Until we have blazing fast facial recognition, documenting isnt going to prevent them from coming back. A better idea is to brand them with an I on their back.
     
  19. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

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    We've been over it. But I'm saying at that time that the explanation that works for @Kframe (that people who consider themselves to be on the left are evil monsters) doesn't work for you (because you deny thinking like that) so you'll have to get more creative.
     
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  20. Fawlty

    Fawlty Deep State Shadow Wolf

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    Numbers, not anecdotes. And you're a numbers guy, too(!) Bias is a bitch lol.
     
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