Self-Defense BJJ

[Thycidides]

ugh, I feel like most self "defenses bjj" is a waste of time. There is a class like that at my gym that is marketed to total beginners but a lot of content like standing wrist locks is really hard for them to do and to learn.

Other moves I feel like they are included because they don't really hurt uke but would not work against anyone resisting with 6 months of training.

Its also only 30 min but usually 3 different moves are shown.

What's most annoying is its between 2 classes that I do like

 

[Thycidides]

If you've spent your 10 years in BJJ perfecting your crappy drop seoi nage standing-RNC counter or standing wrist locks, it's no wonder your grappling sucks.

Actually it would be an improvement to drill drop seoinage like that rather than stupid knife and standing headlock defense.

 

[Uchi Mata]

As a rule, 'self defense' is something people fixate on because it's essentially irrefutable. If you say you're a better grappler than me, there's a very simple way to find that out. But if you say you have a better self defense system than me, specifically for street fights, the only way to find that out is if we have a street fight. Which of course these 'gurus' count on people not doing. I don't have any problem with people talking about self defense in the context of specific techniques, i.e. 'in a match you'd do it this way, in a self defense situation this way would work better because of strikes/pavement/weapons/etc.', but when you get people doing weird shit and their justification is that it's because your sport techniques wouldn't work on da streetz they're almost invariably bad martial artists.

The simple truth of it, which TMA people denied for years and continue to deny even though MMA has proved it time and again, is that the people who win fights are the best conditioned, toughest people who have spent years training to beat other tough people, even if the rules are limited. Eye gouges may be more effective in some sense than punches, but if I've spent 10 years actively trying to punch other competitive fighters, working on my power, and getting in superb shape and you've spent 10 years pretending to eye gouge other people in silk pajamas, the theoretical superiority of eye gouges isn't going to help you when my cross lands.

 

[Quebec Nick]

As a rule, 'self defense' is something people fixate on because it's essentially irrefutable. If you say you're a better grappler than me, there's a very simple way to find that out. But if you say you have a better self defense system than me, specifically for street fights, the only way to find that out is if we have a street fight. Which of course these 'gurus' count on people not doing. I don't have any problem with people talking about self defense in the context of specific techniques, i.e. 'in a match you'd do it this way, in a self defense situation this way would work better because of strikes/pavement/weapons/etc.', but when you get people doing weird shit and their justification is that it's because your sport techniques wouldn't work on da streetz they're almost invariably bad martial artists.

The simple truth of it, which TMA people denied for years and continue to deny even though MMA has proved it time and again, is that the people who win fights are the best conditioned, toughest people who have spent years training to beat other tough people, even if the rules are limited. Eye gouges may be more effective in some sense than punches, but if I've spent 10 years actively trying to punch other competitive fighters, working on my power, and getting in superb shape and you've spent 10 years pretending to eye gouge other people in silk pajamas, the theoretical superiority of eye gouges isn't going to help you when my cross lands.

I always look at self defense has being useful against the average Joe whose in the 95% of people who has no martial marts training.

Most of the gimmicks are there to surprise the attacker. Some of them would clearly not work against a strong guy or a huge guy.

This week-end we had a new kid who's been doing judo for a couple of years who just entered our MMA class. At the end of the class we were working on takedowns and I ended up in his half guard, so I got straight to the underhook, he did a wizard move, arched is back and told me: ''look I got you in an armbar'' so I just put weight on him until he was flat on his back and adjusted my arm so he could not put any pressure on it. The kid is right, you can armbar some clueless person with that armbar, but if you get attacked by a strong dude or anybody who grappled a little, this armbar will get you into more trouble than anything.

I also learned in a self defense class that you can do a standing kimura if someone got your back and is grabbing you around the waist. Sure you can surprise someone with that but you will mostly just anger him.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I always look at self defense has being useful against the average Joe whose in the 95% of people who has no martial marts training.

Most of the gimmicks are there to surprise the attacker. Some of them would clearly not work against a strong guy or a huge guy.

This week-end we had a new kid who's been doing judo for a couple of years who just entered our MMA class. At the end of the class we were working on takedowns and I ended up in his half guard, so I got straight to the underhook, he did a wizard move, arched is back and told me: ''look I got you in an armbar'' so I just put weight on him until he was flat on his back and adjusted my arm so he could not put any pressure on it. The kid is right, you can armbar some clueless person with that armbar, but if you get attacked by a strong dude or anybody who grappled a little, this armbar will get you into more trouble than anything.

I also learned in a self defense class that you can do a standing kimura if someone got your back and is grabbing you around the waist. Sure you can surprise someone with that but you will mostly just anger him.

I mostly agree, but that last part...has it really been so long since the glory days of Sakuraba?

 

[bjjaz]

I put money he wouldn't have done well against a competitive blue. His game was so undeveloped it bothered me. As soon as I stood in his guard he lost all concept of what was happening . You could tell his guard was extremely stunted. He didn't really get a chance to be on top long ,but watching him train around the room it was just as bad. He had really good sub defense, but he has this warped idea of that being "offense". He comes from that same train of thought as Ryron and those guys. Let them dominate positionally , who cares ,your defense is impregnable. Shit makes no sense to me

Are you sure he was actually a black belt, or did he maybe show up to an open mat with a black belt? Not sure which one is a worse idea.

Also, just out of curiosity, what was (estimated) his height and weight?

 

[j123]

I also learned in a self defense class that you can do a standing kimura if someone got your back and is grabbing you around the waist. Sure you can surprise someone with that but you will mostly just anger him.

?

That's a very normal way to escape from standing back control, even if you don't get it, the threat is there and you can work something else

 

[JustTheTip]

As a rule, 'self defense' is something people fixate on because it's essentially irrefutable. If you say you're a better grappler than me, there's a very simple way to find that out. But if you say you have a better self defense system than me, specifically for street fights, the only way to find that out is if we have a street fight. Which of course these 'gurus' count on people not doing. I don't have any problem with people talking about self defense in the context of specific techniques, i.e. 'in a match you'd do it this way, in a self defense situation this way would work better because of strikes/pavement/weapons/etc.', but when you get people doing weird shit and their justification is that it's because your sport techniques wouldn't work on da streetz they're almost invariably bad martial artists.

The simple truth of it, which TMA people denied for years and continue to deny even though MMA has proved it time and again, is that the people who win fights are the best conditioned, toughest people who have spent years training to beat other tough people, even if the rules are limited. Eye gouges may be more effective in some sense than punches, but if I've spent 10 years actively trying to punch other competitive fighters, working on my power, and getting in superb shape and you've spent 10 years pretending to eye gouge other people in silk pajamas, the theoretical superiority of eye gouges isn't going to help you when my cross lands.

This

 

[The Thrill]

shoulda started slapping him in the face from KOB and asking him to show you some self defense jiu-jitsu

 

[Quebec Nick]

?

That's a very normal way to escape from standing back control, even if you don't get it, the threat is there and you can work something else

It's not that it's useless, it's more of the way they show it to you in those classes, it's like: '' and then you broke their shoulder and you get away...'' as if those very low percentage subs will actually work.

They do the same about their striking, you just hit them on pressure point and in the throath, as if any attackers are gonna be clueless and waiting to get hit in the throat.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I always look at self defense has being useful against the average Joe whose in the 95% of people who has no martial marts training.

Most of the gimmicks are there to surprise the attacker. Some of them would clearly not work against a strong guy or a huge guy.

This week-end we had a new kid who's been doing judo for a couple of years who just entered our MMA class. At the end of the class we were working on takedowns and I ended up in his half guard, so I got straight to the underhook, he did a wizard move, arched is back and told me: ''look I got you in an armbar'' so I just put weight on him until he was flat on his back and adjusted my arm so he could not put any pressure on it. The kid is right, you can armbar some clueless person with that armbar, but if you get attacked by a strong dude or anybody who grappled a little, this armbar will get you into more trouble than anything.

I also learned in a self defense class that you can do a standing kimura if someone got your back and is grabbing you around the waist. Sure you can surprise someone with that but you will mostly just anger him.

A major fallacy of self defense is the myth of the "Average Joe." People like to pretend that every potential street "attacker" is fatally flawed by some kind of martial retardation (e.g "the average person on the street will throw a wild drunken haymaker and end up punching themselves in the dick").

Three important truths about fighting the so-called Average Joe:
1. You cannot predict the size, fight history, level of agitation, or weaponry of a hypothetical person

2. A hypothetical person may use unpredictable movements that you are not specifically training to deal with

3. The burden of victory is far higher in a street confrontation, since your goal is to completely neutralize your opponent while staying completely safe yourself (and to do this in every single altercation you may ever find yourself in)

So, any conception of self defense must begin and end with a strong desire to end any confrontation as quickly as possible, usually through maintaining a safe distance at all times, careful deescalation, and evasion if necessary. These concepts are hardly so complex (and perhaps never to be necessary anyway) that one need devote years of martial arts training. If you're really concerned, then it may be useful to devote some time to a Gracie combatives-like program for worst-case scenarios, but we're talking a couple months not years.

 

[BIGthingsSON]

Are you sure he was actually a black belt, or did he maybe show up to an open mat with a black belt? Not sure which one is a worse idea.

Also, just out of curiosity, what was (estimated) his height and weight?

He was a older guy, a bit bigger as well. I'm 6'1 180, he seemed about 200+ 5'11. He had old man strength , but a bit of movement had him confused. I don't think self defense bjj addresses dealing with transitions.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

He was a older guy, a bit bigger as well. I'm 6'1 180, he seemed about 200+ 5'11. He had old man strength , but a bit of movement had him confused. I don't think self defense bjj addresses dealing with transitions.

One thing that's always confused me about many first-family Gracie lineage people is why and when they seem to allow their guards to be passed. I've seen this sometimes even with high level guys like Kevin Casey and Javi Vazquez, where they will basically concede many standing passes but will fight hard to repel knee slice and smash passes. Not sure of their logic, but it's something I've seen frequently enough that it's not just a coincidence.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

One thing that's always confused me about many first-family Gracie lineage people is why and when they seem to allow their guards to be passed. I've seen this sometimes even with high level guys like Kevin Casey and Javi Vazquez, where they will basically concede many standing passes but will fight hard to repel knee slice and smash passes. Not sure of their logic, but it's something I've seen frequently enough that it's not just a coincidence.

The beginning of this might offer some insight.

 

[bjjaz]

He was a older guy, a bit bigger as well. I'm 6'1 180, he seemed about 200+ 5'11. He had old man strength , but a bit of movement had him confused. I don't think self defense bjj addresses dealing with transitions.

Getting a more clear picture now, thanks

 

[bigkick]

Been training g at my current gym for five years. Coach just this week brought up self defense. It was eye opening and fun. Bjj with strikes makes you simplify. But really the basics are the same. Protect yrself. Control distance. Escape or take dominant position.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Been training g at my current gym for five years. Coach just this week brought up self defense. It was eye opening and fun. Bjj with strikes makes you simplify. But really the basics are the same. Protect yrself. Control distance. Escape or take dominant position.

Exactly, it is useful and even fun to train within a self defense context every once in a while. However, it is major overkill (not to mention not as fun) to train like this every single day in perpetuity.