See, this is the difference between champions

[Codpiece]

I can't argue with any of that. Well done.

Thanks for the discussion. Have a good one.

 

[Fstepp]

If a person/fighter is as good as he claims, he will get there without help / PEDs.

You can never claim to be the best if you have cheated your way to the top.

It does not matter what you have accomplished or how strong or fast you are on the sauce.

All your accolades are null and void when cheating.

Something a savage individual with sub-70 IQ would not comprehend i am sure.

 

[21 Savage]

Not true. Sports are governed by rules. Jones broke the rules. So we know that Jones is the best when he cheats, but have no idea whether:

a) Jones is the best when he doesn't cheat
b) whether all his opponents cheated

Another thing we know for a fact is that Jones does not believe he can beat DC without cheating. Otherwise he'd never have risked it, certainly not for their last fight.

Not true. Not all instances of breaking the rules are equal. We also don't know if Jones took anything intentionally. We also know its incredibly unlikely that a physically disadvantaged, short fat fully natty 40 year old is able to compete with a 28 year old supposed PED-cheating GOAT contender. So we can either pretend like DC is completely natural and Jones isnt, and then naively and contraindicatory to reality, claim that Jonathans obliteration of DC somehow is irrelevant.

The stance your taking is classic and has already been debunked.

Arguing that a fighter is clean unless they have failed a drug test, that there is no actual proof or evidence to say that the fighter was using something, is fine - naive - but fine. Logically this also then follows the admitting of the fact that Jonathan did fairly kill Daniel at UFC 182 as he did not pop for anything suspect in relation to that fight.

Arguing you don't need direct evidence or absolute proof because red flags, "common sense" and basic knowledge about sports is enough to safely say pro athletes at the top level are using PEDs, is fine - realistic - and fine. Using this logic, people will see Jonathan popping for estrogen blockers and say hes juicing, despite there not being any direct evidence of this. This line of reasoning requires all top fighters to be thought of as juicers, ESPECIALLY those with red flags (like DCs low T or Jonathans estrogen blockers)/those who fought when testing was lacking (pre usada). Meaning Jonathan was dirty, just like Daniel..and everyone else.

Not everyone who thinks Jones' career is tainted needs to be morally grandstanding. Part of competition is playing by the rules. That isn't saying that taking PEDs is objectively right or wrong for any given individual. But for a competitor in the UFC it is wrong, and therefore if a fighter is using and beats another fighter who is not then the result is overturned. Since Jones was busted twice but also had hormone levels which are impossible for his first fight with DC it's reasonable to believe that Jones cheated for both their bouts.

I was referring to people bringing up his recreational drug use, car crashes, infidelity and whatever else they could bring up

 

[divljak]

And (supposed) GOAT contenders at that.

Volkan can continue to work hard, and maybe if he gives his very best, he will be able to land that one punch that puts DC into trouble. But most likely he will never even beat DC standing up.
And no matter if he focuses solely on wrestling for the next 10 years, he will never be able to avoid DC taking and holding him down.

Francis Ngannou? Join a proper camp, improve your cardio to go hard for more than five minutes, whoop Stipe easy.


Sporting a winning streak against old, finished, and new, upcoming, underprepared fighters may win you the belt, but it does not make you the champion, and it by far not does put you in any GOAT discussion. Only one legitimate champion was fighting at UFC 220.

improving cardio means losing muscle, and losing muscle means losing the best aspect of Francis, punching power.

what people dont understand, is that people on average can get about the same gas tank, but those with more horsepower use it faster.


People usually say that HWs have bad cardio, but to move more mass and have more power you get more exhaustion, its natural, even PEDs can do only so much about that

 

[Codpiece]

Not true. Not all instances of breaking the rules are equal. We also don't know if Jones took anything intentionally. We also know its incredibly unlikely that a physically disadvantaged, short fat fully natty 40 year old is able to compete with a 28 year old supposed PED-cheating GOAT contender. So we can either pretend like DC is completely natural and Jones isnt, and then naively and contraindicatory to reality, claim that Jonathans obliteration of DC somehow is irrelevant.

Yes, not every break of the rules is equal. But doping is pretty high on the list, especially if it were to be intentional. We cannot prove intentional use, but what can be shown is a history of curious hormone levels, testing positive for different substances which is consistent with a person changing their regime after being caught, a claim about procurement of generic "dick pills" which according to the commission "lacked the clear ring of truth" (i.e. it was obvious Jones was lying) and then a positive test for a short-detection window steroid by using an advanced testing method identifying metabolites.

So it can be shown that Jones is a serial offender, with a history of damning test results and a track record of misconduct on a personal level. But one cannot prove intentional use.

What we also know for a fact is that Jones likes to party and does not always train his hardest. Certainly he claimed not to leading into his first match against Cormier. If a physically gifted former Olympian worked hard it could easily be envisaged that he would have a competitive fight for a few rounds against another physically gifted drug cheat who happened to party instead of taining as hard as he could, before the older fighter slowed and the younger fighter outlasted him. Especially if you look at the type of fight the pair had.

The stance your taking is classic and has already been debunked.

Kindly show me where, please? I'd be interested in reading any solid argument.

Arguing that a fighter is clean unless they have failed a drug test, that there is no actual proof or evidence to say that the fighter was using something, is fine - naive - but fine. Logically this also then follows the admitting of the fact that Jonathan did fairly kill Daniel at UFC 182 as he did not pop for anything suspect in relation to that fight.

Not the same thing at all. True, Jon did not test positive for 182. But he did post outrageous results which were consistent with him testing positive for PCT and for Tbol in tests for his two subsequent bouts against Cormier.

By contrast, Cormier has no history of incredibly suspicious results that I am aware of (all results I have seen have been flagged as within normal ranges), though once again, happy to be shown otherwise.

The flawed logic is not: "one guy tested positive twice after having so suspicious tests earlier in his career, so he was likely using PEDs at that point also."
The flawed logic is: "competitive athletes often cheat, therefore everyone must cheat."

Arguing you don't need direct evidence or absolute proof because red flags, "common sense" and basic knowledge about sports is enough to safely say pro athletes at the top level are using PEDs, is fine - realistic - and fine. Using this logic, people will see Jonathan popping for estrogen blockers and say hes juicing, despite there not being any direct evidence of this. This line of reasoning requires all top fighters to be thought of as juicers, ESPECIALLY those with red flags (like DCs low T or Jonathans estrogen blockers)/those who fought when testing was lacking (pre usada). Meaning Jonathan was dirty, just like Daniel..and everyone else.

Not at all. For a start, DC's T/E ratio was within normal variance. It was a swing, but not outside normal ranges. Whereas Jones turned in a ratio like an 80 year old man undergoing chemotherapy, and normal ratios in surrounding tests.

It is sensible to suggest that Jones was very likely using throughout his career due to multiple fails, queer results and a deeply spurious claim about having a friend sourcing generic Cailas. It cannot be proven, which is why Cormier's record remains 19-1-0-1 as opposed to 19-0-0-2. But as per my posts to @MusterX - people need to make up their own minds about situations like that.

I was referring to people bringing up his recreational drug use, car crashes, infidelity and whatever else they could bring up

Fair enough. The fact is, almost none of us will face the kinds of temptations Jones has: youth, fame, money, drugs, women...that doesn't mean people can't objectively say running from a car crash one caused is a terrible thing to do, but condemning everything the man does wrong when we've never faced the same choices is to unjustly claim a moral high ground. I think many of us (myself included) would make some of the same mistakes Jones has made if we were put in his shoes.

 

[Gregoire1]

I'm shocked that there are still people who don't think that (effectively) all high level athletes have used PEDs.

Maybe they just haven't been exposed enough to grasp how widespread it is but steroids are everywhere. Every gym, every team, every college, every high school. Where there are athletes there are steroids.

There's the guys who got caught and everyone else.

Some have abused it more than others and yes there are a handful who are completely clean but they are a few specs of sand on a big beach.

Absolutely. 99 percent of fighters are on gear. And DC is one of first candidates (with Romero too). 40 years old former Olympian (know ho to cheat test much more sophisticated that USADA) chubby man with somehow super strenght, megachin and cardio for days... Andhe competed toe-for-toe with roided young better fighter in Jones. Yes, he is natty<45>

And DC estrogen level before first fight were also very suspicious. So if DCs fans want to somehow overtune their first fight because of 4th degree indirect evidence of Jones was not clean we could do the same for DC because of same reason (plus his age,a lot of injuries with foshy cardio and chin, Olympic excerience ect).

Jones actually past many test and failed just two. So, if we assume him on gear entire life - he passed tests 1000-2 times .Why couldnt DC pass 2 more tests succesfully (1000 times) with more sophisticated and clever using? Look at Cyborg and say USADA do they job.

This why all fighters (Gus, Rumble, DC himself, even Volkan) calling Jones best LHW, they knew that the playing field is leveled.