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Discussion in 'Sports Bar' started by XThe GreatestX, Apr 6, 2018.
Scottie Pippen is absolutely a top 50 player all time.
You have it backwards. Kobe's ball hogging ass would have never received a ring without Shaq. MVP Awards tell the story. Show me the Finals MPVs for Kobe. Shaq took each award during their run. Kobe is in the same boat as Steph Curry.
The fact Kobe won 2 titles without Shaq kind of debunks this. He won Finals MVP twice (2009 & 2010)
I think Steph has earned his spot in the top 50, but I'm not sold he's as high as many rank him.
lmao @ any list that has Cousy in it.
6 titles, 1 mpv, 8 assist titles
What does that have to do with Kobe being second to Shaq when they were teammates?
Shaq needed the 2nd and 3rd greatest shooting guards of all to win titles. Kobe won titles without hall of fame teammates.
You said Kobe would never win a ring without Shaq
Another person ranking Allen Iverson and Jason Kidd above Scottie Pippen all-time. Yawn.
The fact that Kobe was his right hand man for the LA run is coincidental. Theres a dozen names or more you couldve replaced Kobe with, and the result wouldve been the same. Tbe same cannot be said for Shaq. Duncan or Webber are the only names that come to mind atm. Point is, Shaq was going to win rings in that era, with Kobe or not. Kobe needed Shaq more than Shaq needed Kobe.
I did not read the rest of the thread. Especially to check whether or not anyone agrees with me or not.
You gave your opinion. I gave mine.
I think that is rather naive. There were a handful of players that could have replaced Kobe and helped Shaq get over the top at the time. Vince, TMac, AI are the only ones that come to mind. But it's to be noted none of these guys showed the consistent poise in the clutch and overall IQ as Kobe. And as I'm sure you are aware you need to have those elements to win a title...not just talent and skill. I'm not sure Vince, TMac, or AI would have showed enough IQ and poise in big moments like Kobe did. Think Game 7 against Blazers, game 6 & 7 against the Kings, game 4 against the Pacers, the total domination of the Spurs, and other moments.
Shaq needed hall of fame level teammates, with high IQs, to compete for titles. No one was going to win a title just dumping the ball into Shaq every play. He needed a system and an all time great teammate. He needed Penny to get to the finals in 95. He needed Kobe to win in LA. And he needed DWade to win in Miami. When Shaq had an All Star in Eddie Jones as the number 2 guy he couldn't stop getting swept by the Jazz and the Spurs.
Now contrast that with Kobe. He was able to go on to win two NBA titles without a hall of fame teammate. He was able to win 2 titles and 3 conf. championship with a top 20 player, maybe top 15. So that kind of debunks your theory that he needed Shaq.
In fact, outside of Jordan's first 3 peat and Hakeems first title what other all time great won titles with as little help as Kobe?
lmao. Pau is easily a HOF'er and we can argue the REAL mvp of the finals.
If Pau is a HOF'er it's only because he played with Kobe
lmao, because Kobe is known for making players better around him? It's known that Kobe is worthless when he doesn't a HOF level big around him. Just look at the years he spent missing the playoffs and losing in the first round.
Pippen > Gasol
Pippen > Jordan
No one's denying Shaq had help through all his Finals appearances. Nobody can get their alone(though argument could be made for Hakeem).
Shaq had Kobe, a bunch of smart role players, and the Zenmaster. I'm simply stating the truth that Shaq meant more to their success than Kobe. If you take Shaq off that team, they're an 8 seed at best(in a stacked West). You take Kobe off that team, they win 50, and lose to the Jazz/Spurs/Kings in the second round.
Also, Kobe had Pau, Odom, some good role players, and Zenmaster during the second run. There's no doubt who's team that was, but it's a myth that Kobe somehow "got there on his own".
Kobe > Shaq