Sam Harris v Russel Brand Discussion on Islam, philosophy and other issues.

[helltoupee]

Christianity has the New Testament and the message of Jesus which is basically one of love, tolerance, peace and forgiveness and can be used to pretty much overrule all the fire and brimstone stuff in the Old Testament. But Muslims believe that the Qur'an, where the message is consistently one of war, conquest and subjugation, is the direct word of God, his final say that cannot be questioned in any way.

That is the fundamental difference. That's why people show themselves to be ignorant of Islam when they assume that Islam can go through some sort reformation similar to Christianity. Like we should just sit around and wait for this to happen. As unlike Christianity, there is no ideological basis within the faith for this to happen. Quite the opposite in fact, questioning or disputing the message of Muhammad and the word of Allah can be punishable by death, which is why Muslims who want to change Islam are so few and far between. Even to this day things like apostasy and blasphemy are still a crime throughout most of the Muslim World, with the punishment being death in many cases.

People also make the assumption that while the Qur'an may contain plenty of things that are totally abhorrent and incompatible with secular democracy, it's only actually a tiny minority of Muslims who take these things seriously and truly believe them. Which again, is totally false. Just look at every poll and survey done on Muslims, even Westernized ones who have been here for generations, and you see the results are consistent time after time. Most Muslims views are in line with the Qur'an, even the very worst parts of it.

Now you can then turn around and say "but I know Muslims who are nice people" (as Brand does here) which I'm sure is true. But I guarantee that if you ever sat down with these people and got them to really open up with you, you most probably won't have to scratch too far beneath the surface to find some pretty disturbing views, especially on things like gays, jews, the role of women, free speech, the use of violence and so on.

While I appreciate your answer, I don't agree with vast generalizations. I have known, worked, and been friends with plenty of Muslim people - Rancho San Diego, which is a suburb of San Diego, is very well known to have a lot of people from Iraq and other Arabic countries.

I think if you get to know people, and become personal with them, you will find that they are normal people just like you.

Christianity was most certainly pulled out of the dark ages by liberal enlightenment, and I don't see why the same can't happen with Islam. Most American Muslims are completely different than Middle Eastern Muslims. Just as Christians, before America, were just as brutal.

In regards to the polls that are so often quoted, what's largely forgotten is the mixture of Islam and politics, which has led to much oppression and the reactionary violence you see so often. I would bet everything I have that if Saudi Arabi had flags planted in every US state, or imposed sanctions on antibiotics that led to the easily preventable death of 350,000 American kindergartners, you would see just as much vitriol coming from American citizens, and yes, God would be invoked as justification, just as George Bush did when more than half this country was ready to carpet bomb the entire Middle East due to 2700 American deaths. Now just try to imagine 350,000 American kids wasting away from simple infections. Ya, it would piss people off. And simplistic people, who are often drawn to religion in the first place, will ask for all the help they can get (God) to avenge tragedy.

If Americans were living in the midst of constant meddling by foreign powers, there is no question in my mind that polls would show plenty of American Christians invoking God and calling for the heads of their enemies.

 

[Islam Imamate]

While I appreciate your answer, I don't agree with vast generalizations. I have known, worked, and been friends with plenty of Muslim people - Rancho San Diego, which is a suburb of San Diego, is very well known to have a lot of people from Iraq and other Arabic countries.

I think if you get to know people, and become personal with them, you will find that they are normal people just like you.

This is such a lame argument. The dozen or so Muslims you've met in the US are not exactly representative of the Muslims world. A peasant from Pakistan or Bangladesh is far more representative and if you ask one what they believe about women, homosexuals, and atheists you might not like the answer very much.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with what the guy you quoted said either. He's a bit off, definitely generalizing too much. He talks about how the Qur'an can't be changed or reinterpreted and how its consistently about war but actually Quranists, those Muslims who only accept the Qur'an, tend to have the least illiberal interpretations. However, they are only a small minority of Muslims and are actually considered heretics by Orthodox Muslims for rejecting the hadith and schools of jurisprudence.

The idea that Islam can't reform is betrayed by the fact that it already has, just not in the direction most want. The rise of Salafism is a dramatic transformation in the Muslims world and it happened within the last 200 years or so. Not the change people are looking for but it is a change and there are those that want to reform the religion in the opposite direction, its just that the conditions on the ground aren't very amendable to that in most of the Muslims world given the prevalence of war and dictatorship, some of which is caused, at least in part, by Western meddling.

 

[helltoupee]

This is such a lame argument. The dozen or so Muslims you've met in the US are not exactly representative of the Muslims world. A peasant from Pakistan or Bangladesh is far more representative and if you ask one what they believe about women, homosexuals, and atheists you might not like the answer very much.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with what the guy you quoted said either. He's a bit off, definitely generalizing too much. He talks about how the Qur'an can't be changed or reinterpreted and how its consistently about war but actually Quranists, those Muslims who only accept the Qur'an, tend to have the least illiberal interpretations. However, they are only a small minority of Muslims and are actually considered heretics by Orthodox Muslims for rejecting the hadith and schools of jurisprudence.

The idea that Islam can't reform is betrayed by the fact that it already has, just not in the direction most want. The rise of Salafism is a dramatic transformation in the Muslims world and it happened within the last 200 years or so. Not the change people are looking for but it is a change and there are those that want to reform the religion in the opposite direction, its just that the conditions on the ground aren't very amendable to that in most of the Muslims world given the prevalence of war and dictatorship, some of which is caused, at least in part, by Western meddling.

I brought up the example of people I've known in response to another poster basically implying that 'if you really get to know a Muslim, you will find that they are a disturbing people'. I have gotten to know some Muslims, and am still very good friends with several from high school. Further, he was contending that Muslims are incapable of being anything other than extremists, which is why I raised the point about Americanized Muslims.

Call it lame all you want, it doesn't trump my experience that A) I have been around Muslims who worship Islam, and B) they were not suicidal Jihadis hell bent on throwing gays off roofs or separating my head from my body. Sorry, but I was taught to be very careful when using the terms all, always, everybody, and never.

Of course some peasant from Pakistan is going to be different. He's also seen his country ravaged by war, and will harbor a political and emotional aggression that has affected the manner in which he conducts himself.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I brought up the example of people I've known in response to another poster basically implying that 'if you really get to know a Muslim, you will find that they are a disturbing people'. I have gotten to know some Muslims, and am still very good friends with several from high school. Further, he was contending that Muslims are incapable of being anything other than extremists, which is why I raised the point about Americanized Muslims.

Call it lame all you want, it doesn't trump my experience that A) I have been around Muslims who worship Islam, and B) they were not suicidal Jihadis hell bent on throwing gays off roofs or separating my head from my body. Sorry, but I was taught to be very careful when using the terms all, always, everybody, and never.

Of course some peasant from Pakistan is going to be different. He's also seen his country ravaged by war, and will harbor a political and emotional aggression that has affected the manner in which he conducts himself.

He also mentioned the polling data which produces some problematic results to say the least. Your claim here doesn't really refute that point. Have you ever talked about gays or Jews with your Muslim friends? If you do you might be shocked at what you hear.

If you're also arguing that things like war and dictatorship and colonialism/US imperialism are factors that help explain the current state of the Muslim world then on that I'd agree. But we should be able to acknowledge that while also acknowledging that at the same time regardless of what caused the current cultural and social deterioration its nonetheless a deterioration.

 

[helltoupee]

He also mentioned the polling data which produces some problematic results to say the least. Your claim here doesn't really refute that point. Have you ever talked about gays or Jews with your Muslim friends? If you do you might be shocked at what you hear.

If you're also arguing that things like war and dictatorship and colonialism/US imperialism are factors that help explain the current state of the Muslim world then on that I'd agree. But we should be able to acknowledge that while also acknowledging that at the same time regardless of what caused the current cultural and social deterioration its nonetheless a deterioration.

I already addressed the polling data.

And no, we didn't talk about Jews - it never came up in a serious manner. Of course Muslims will harbor some resentment to Jews, in the same way I would imagine that Americans would hold a resentment to Chinese people if they decided to start bulldozing homes and schools in suburb USA because they claimed that they had a link to their long lost Mongoloid ancestors.

As to gays, we've commented on them many times - at no point did anyone suggest they should be murdered or thrown off a roof. Have you tried walking into a Christian church and talking to them about gays? They might voice their disapproval, but nobody is gunning them down. It's the same thing. Hell, you'd get the same response from most straight males, religious or not. My interactions were no different.

As to your 2nd paragraph, I already addressed that as well. Poverty, war, suffering, destitution is almost always the birthplace of radical fundamentalism.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I already addressed the polling data.

And no, we didn't talk about Jews - it never came up in a serious manner. Of course Muslims will harbor some resentment to Jews, in the same way I would imagine that Americans would hold a resentment to Chinese people if they decided to start bulldozing homes and schools in suburb USA because they claimed that they had a link to their long lost Mongoloid ancestors.

As to gays, we've commented on them many times - at no point did anyone suggest they should be murdered or thrown off a roof. Have you tried walking into a Christian church, or even your average straight male and talking to them about gays? They might voice their disapproval, but nobody is gunning them down. It's the same thing.

You don't have to be antisemitic to be anti-Zionist so I don't buy Israel's actions as an excuse for antisemitism in Muslims who aren't directly connected to the conflict..

As far as Christians and gays, yes they can also harbor pretty ugly attitudes.

But more often than not when these ugly attitudes manifest as action its Muslims carrying out violence against gays.

As to your 2nd paragraph, I already addressed that as well. Poverty, war, suffering, destitution is almost always the birthplace of radical fundamentalism.

Sure that's fair but there's also specific ways that this reaction to poverty war, suffering, destitution etc manifests itself in the Islamic world that doesn't happen in quite the same way outside in the Islamic world where people suffer from those things and its likely rooted in their unique culture of which their religion is a huge part of.

 

[helltoupee]

You don't have to be antisemitic to be anti-Zionist so I don't buy Israel's actions as an excuse for antisemitism in Muslims who aren't directly connected to the conflict..

It may not be right, but it's understandable, and would manifest in anyone who perceives the same oppression. That's a problem with the species. Iraq wasn't directly connected to 9/11, yet there we went. 90% of this country supported it. George Bush thought that he was fulfilling Biblical prophecy. Religion is used as a political tool, and Islam is no different.

I'm not saying that all Muslims are innocent or correct. I'm saying that people are people, and will react similarly if subjected to the same circumstances.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It may not be right, but it's understandable, and would manifest in anyone who perceives the same oppression. That's a problem with the species. Iraq wasn't directly connected to 9/11, yet there we went. 90% of this country supported it. George Bush thought that he was fulfilling Biblical prophecy.

I'm not saying that all Muslims are innocent or correct. I'm saying that people are people, and will react similarly if subjected to the same circumstances.

If we're talking about the Palestinians then yes to a certain extent I can understand prejudice building up over the oppression they face but that's not an excuse for the prevalence of antisemitism among Muslims outside of Palestine. Maybe the Rohingya since the Israelis sell weapons to and train the Burmese military which is ethnically cleansing them but most Muslims aren't being oppressed by the Israelis directly.

 

[helltoupee]

If we're talking about the Palestinians then yes to a certain extent I can understand prejudice building up over the oppression they face but that's not an excuse for the prevalence of antisemitism among Muslims outside of Palestine. Maybe the Rohingya since the Israelis sell weapons to and train the Burmese military which is ethnically cleansing them but most Muslims aren't being oppressed by the Israelis directly.

You don't think that prejudice is fueled by political leaders/motives?

How is that motivation any different than what we have seen when America has suffered the same disconnected transgressions? How many rednecks from Alabama were directly affected by Iraqi's? Yet I bet you could find more than a few who would suggest that sand ni**ers deserve to be squashed like bugs, 'collateral damage' and all. Are you ready to make the absolute statement that all Americans, or all Christians, have an inherent quality that predisposes them to preconceptions about Middle Easterners?

 

[Islam Imamate]

You don't think that prejudice is fueled by political leaders/motives?

How is that motivation any different than what we have seen when America has suffered the same disconnected transgressions? How many rednecks from Alabama were directly affected by Iraqi's? Yet I bet you could find more than a few who would suggest that sand ni**ers deserve to be squashed like bugs, 'collateral damage' and all. Are you ready to make the absolute statement that all Americans, or all Christians, have an inherent quality that predisposes them to preconceptions about Middle Easterners?

I never said that Muslims have an inherent quality that makes them antisemitic so you're putting words in my mouth. What I suggested was that toxic attitudes towards Jews, homosexuals, and women are prevalent to a worrying degree in the Muslim world and that I don't accept anti-Zionism as an excuse for antisemitism in Muslims who aren't directly affected by the Israeli occupation just as I don't accept anti-Muslim bigotry in Americans who aren't directly affected by the Iraq war. If you want to argue that anti-Muslim attitudes are too prevalent in America that's fine, make that argument but it doesn't refute the points made about the prevalence of similarly toxic attitudes in the Islamic world.

 

[squeezewax]

Christopher Hitchens would of destroyed Brand.
[yt]

 

[helltoupee]

I never said that Muslims have an inherent quality that makes them antisemitic so you're putting words in my mouth. What I suggested was that toxic attitudes towards Jews, homosexuals, and women are prevalent to a worrying degree in the Muslim world and that I don't accept anti-Zionism as an excuse for antisemitism in Muslims who aren't directly affected by the Israeli occupation just as I don't accept anti-Muslim bigotry in Americans who aren't directly affected by the Iraq war. If you want to argue that anti-Muslim attitudes are too prevalent in America that's fine, make that argument but it doesn't refute the points made about the prevalence of similarly toxic attitudes in the Islamic world.

You injected yourself into a conversation that implied Muslims are inherently disturbed people, which I had taken issue with.

As far as toxic attitudes go, this is not something unique to Muslims. I was never arguing that those things are non-existent. I'm simply saying that if you put most people in a similar situation, they will likely react the same way.

Seeing shit like this on a daily basis has an emotional impact on people that far outweighs what religion they happen to belong to, and last I checked, Middle Eastern countries don't have a flag planted in every corner of the world. You might see things a little differently if you thought they were encroaching on your way of life. You also might be a little more militant if Mexico and the US were surrounded by North Korean military bases, and Canada's land was being taken over by said Koreans because they claimed some ancient relationship to the land, even though you haven't been "directly" affected by it.

I stand by my point that people are people - which you declared was "lame", and I refuse to make blanket, absolute statements, that one group is so much kinder and gentler, when the one's daily concerns consist of deciding between a Big Mac or a Whopper, and the other's is why their child is missing some limbs.

 

[Islam Imamate]

You injected yourself into a conversation that implied Muslims are inherently disturbed people, which I had taken issue with.

As far as toxic attitudes go, this is not something unique to Muslims. I was never arguing that those things are non-existent. I'm simply saying that if you put most people in a similar situation, they will likely react the same way.

Seeing shit like this on a daily basis has an emotional impact on people that far outweighs what religion they happen to belong to, and last I checked, Middle Eastern countries don't have a flag planted in every corner of the world. You might see things a little differently if you thought they were encroaching on your way of life. You also might be a little more militant if Mexico and the US were surrounded by North Korean military bases, and Canada's land was being taken over by said Koreans because they claimed some ancient relationship to the land, even though you haven't been "directly" affected by it.

I stand by my point that people are people - which you declared was "lame", and I refuse to make blanket, absolute statements, that one group is so much kinder and gentler, when the one's daily concerns consist of deciding between a Big Mac or a Whopper, and the other's is why their child is missing some limbs.

I interjected because I think the appeal to anecdotal evidence in this discussion is misguided and overused. Muslims do have a high prevalence of certain toxic attitudes. Its certainly tied to some extent to the political situation and the history fo colonialism and US imperialism but also to their own culture and religion which has a huge effect on the way they see the world. The fact that Muslims across the world have solidarity with the Palestinians and Syrians is only due to their religion so your own post is proving my point.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I'll never understand why people who seem to hate Christians seem to defend Islam non stop. I'm not saying don't defend Islam. But how can you hate on one and defend the other

I'm an atheist. So I have no dog in any religious fight. But it is so weird

It's the same reason British explorers marveled at the quaint ways of the noble savages they would save before killing. The only difference today is the hard left's insistence that Islamic society is equal, yet Muslims need to be shielded from any and all criticism of their myths.

 

[helltoupee]

I interjected because I think the appeal to anecdotal evidence in this discussion is misguided and overused. Muslims do have a high prevalence of certain toxic attitudes. Its certainly tied to some extent to the political situation and the history fo colonialism and US imperialism but also to their own culture and religion which has a huge effect on the way they see the world. The fact that Muslims across the world have solidarity with the Palestinians and Syrians is only due to their religion so your own post is proving my point.

Not sure what your point is. Like identifying with like is not exclusive to Islam.

Anecdotes were used to demonstrate that absolute statements are asinine. I suppose you missed the context.

Regardless, I will concede that you make some good points - typing on my phone is a bitch so I'm out until tomorrow. Have a good one.

 

[EGarrett]

Would love to see Brand debate Peterson/Molyneux.

Snuff films aren't allowed on Youtube.

 

[Bald1]

Not sure what your point is. Like identifying with like is not exclusive to Islam.

Anecdotes were used to demonstrate that absolute statements are asinine. I suppose you missed the context.

Regardless, I will concede that you make some good points - typing on my phone is a bitch so I'm out until tomorrow. Have a good one.

How well do you know Kafir as a WR poster? Just curious.

 

[Viva]

Brand is one of the worst people to hear in these sort of dialogues. His whole approach is entirely based on some ridiculous appeal to emotion which make him unbearable to listen to. I'll give him props for having Harris on though.

 

[helltoupee]

How well do you know Kafir as a WR poster? Just curious.

I respond to the arguments presented.

 

[Bald1]

I respond to the arguments presented.

How about if the guy putting forward the argument knows more about the topic at hand than you? Do you give his posts more consideration?