Roosmalen tight guard defense

[SuperLuigi]

Lets just be real for a second its nothing to do with the judges. Its Glory and their corruption!

When I try to understand Glory's scoring I try to use the same level of content analysis that allowed me to slowly reveal the details of Thai scoring. Its easy to say "X did better, this is corruption, he beat all the Th... guys!" Its harder to work out whats actually going on. But, its not too hard. Glory are not egalitarians trying to find out who is the most skilled, they are businessmen trying to attract casuals. That means guys who go forward, stand in the pocket and throw round punches get rewarded, because its easy to understand. K-1 was no different, they were very upfront about their rules being specifically designed to produce KOs.

 

[Kanka]

Well I guess 99% of people who watched the fight including many of Roosmalens home crowd who booed him know more about scoring kickboxing than the actual paid judges.

Did they pay the one who scored it a draw aswell?

 

[RichardN7]

Came here hoping for breakdowns of the high shield/guard, and all I found is a discussion on Glory judging.
I do agree that the judging so far is inconsistent and could be interpreted as biased. Glory seems to intentionally handicap Thai fighters (just like K-1), and push wild dutch-style guys. It's a stupid move, as this will only hurt Glory and its roster in the long run. If they make the rules somewhat accommodating for Thais, it could lead to a wave of Thai fighters flocking to Glory, which would in turn make for some awesome match-ups. However, I doubt they will risk allowing Thais to take over the top 10s of the lighter weight divisions (which I personally doubt would happen). As things stand, I think Glory should just pay some attention to this outcry and clear up which way the scoring rules stand.
As for RVR's or Holzken's high guard; It was entertaining watching Doumbe pick apart Holzken using superior movement and footwork. It's refreshing to see, and hope there will be more guys like that. I think this high shield will start being exploited more and more. I personally am not a fan of it.

 

[PivotPunch]

Came here hoping for breakdowns of the high shield/guard, and all I found is a discussion on Glory judging.
I do agree that the judging so far is inconsistent and could be interpreted as biased. Glory seems to intentionally handicap Thai fighters (just like K-1), and push wild dutch-style guys. It's a stupid move, as this will only hurt Glory and its roster in the long run. If they make the rules somewhat accommodating for Thais, it could lead to a wave of Thai fighters flocking to Glory, which would in turn make for some awesome match-ups. However, I doubt they will risk allowing Thais to take over the top 10s of the lighter weight divisions (which I personally doubt would happen). As things stand, I think Glory should just pay some attention to this outcry and clear up which way the scoring rules stand.
As for RVR's or Holzken's high guard; It was entertaining watching Doumbe pick apart Holzken using superior movement and footwork. It's refreshing to see, and hope there will be more guys like that. I think this high shield will start being exploited more and more. I personally am not a fan of it.

Holzken has good defense his defence in recent times hans't really been exploited what ha dsbeen exploited is his overall game, lack of activity and footwork maybe. Doumbe still didn't inflict a terrible amount of damage on Holzken no oen in rceent years has he simply exploited the things Holzken does not do as well.

The issue of a constant high gaurd is that you tend to shell up in it for too long without doing anything. It happens to guys like Joshua Clottey in boxing or Roosmalen in kickboxing. It work best if your opponent either doesn't exploit it by being offensive or if you are active anyway and counter out of your shell.

Using a high guard as defence is also not the same for everyone Holzken has a pretty different style to Roosmalen they are good at different things. Holzken still doesn't get hit cleanly as much and he has a tighter high guard than Roosmalen he just gets outworked. Roosmalen gets hit a bit more but he also is a less defensive minded fighterhis mindset is going forward and punching and the high guard is the means to get it done while Holzken's philosophy is to pressure without getting hit and when he can do that THEn he throws.

In the fights Roosmalen gets outworked he tries harder and harder the more he gets outworked and takes more risks but also thinking less and less about defence and getting wilder while Holzken has pretty much the opposite problem and he then only thinks about defence and can't get any offence going since he's always on the defence even while going forward.


The high guard has its weaknesses like any other guard allthough it is sometimes the only thing used in kcikboxing fights but often not even that well. on the other hand you can say the same bad things about fighters whose (often flawed9 headmovement gets exposed like Simon Marcus against Wilnis, against fighters who have no guard or defence at all like Joe Schilling or against Thais who only use that long one hand extended guard and get hit while doing that.


Saying it doesn't work and is shit outside of Glory or K-1 is dumb when there have been boxing and MMA champs who fights that way (Shogun, Rampage, Winky Wright,...)

if you want breakdown I think Connor Ruebusch has one about Marlon Sterling somewhere

 

[Kanka]

Groenhart exposed Holzkens defense, Doumbe exposed Holzkens one dimensional style.

No one said a high guard doesn't work outside of K-1. Heck, it doesn't even work very well inside glory when you put that style against more dynamic fighters like Petpanomrung.

Distance, timing and precision > tight guard and spamming combos

 

[AbeRudder]

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

“I watched Petchpanomrung in the tournament and I felt like he got hit a lot, especially in the earlier part of the fight. A lot of Thai guys take time to warm up into the fight so maybe it was that, or maybe his guard just isn't that good, but for sure I know I can land heavy on him."

Dutch people don't seem to have any conception of defence beyond that of having a high guard. Whenever someone takes a couple of shots, their explanation is always "his guard was inadequate". And whenever they compliment someone for have good defence, they use phrases like "his guard was perfect" or "everything was off the defence" or "everything bounced off the defence". Because, by the same token that poor defence could only be the result of a poor guard, good defence just is the result of a strong guard.

It's a pretty weird way of looking at things.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

I don't know how much that fight had to do with Holzken's over reliance on a high guard, if that's what you are trying to suggest. I don't think it helped him, but he was just comprehensively dominated in that fight. Buakaw was just way better. Holzken basically got to fight Buakaw in the pocket for long stretches of that fight, just exchanging punches and leg kicks, which in theory is exactly the kind of fight he wants and he still got completely owned.

 

[nino]

OK we get it HAHA had the good sarcastic comments up front that's to be expected, I also think Petch one, lets move past being bitter for the moment.

He uses the shield defense that many dutch kickboxers use like Holzken and Joe Valentini.

It's easier with big gloves. And with this scoring system, it's effective. Allows you to pressure the opponent, take minimal damage [ in most situations ( dont flame me for this shit ) ] and look for counters. Helps the fighters who want to push the opponent into the ropes and open with combinations.

I remember someone spam threaded about Nieky Holzken's defense in here and the standup forum - and it got some very good responses about the technical details.

I would look for them if you want to learn more about why and how it is used.

Thank you!

 

[DastardlyMass]

You have no facts to back your accusations. Maybe glory is corrupt, maybe not, but all we know is the judges made bad decisions. So yeah let's just keep it real for a second and conclude that:

1. The judges sucked

2.Glory isn't clear enough on wether kicks to the arms score or not. To solve all the controversies they should specifically state that damage scores no matter on which part of the body it is inclicted. If kicks to the arms don't score at all however, it should be clear in the scoring criteria.

Glory has been very clear from the start kicks to arms do not score ( it is fucking bazooka joe who keeps saying on commentary that he does know how they score). Corruption gets thrown around because they have the power to change the judges but do not because it just so happens it is always a hemmers gym or former golden glory guy getting the benefit of these disputed decisions.

 

[Kanka]

Glory has been very clear from the start kicks to arms do not score ( it is fucking bazooka joe who keeps saying on commentary that he does know how they score). Corruption gets thrown around because they have the power to change the judges but do not because it just so happens it is always a hemmers gym or former golden glory guy getting the benefit of these disputed decisions.

Bullshit.

 

[DastardlyMass]

Im the biggest glory hater here so I'm not making up shit to defend them. Glory as an organization and the dutch guys that were there from the start have always maintained kicks to the arms are considered a block just the same as a kick that hits the shins. The whole modern sport of international kickboxing and k1 also always counted them as a blocked kick also so i do not understand where some of you ever got the idea glory would score them in the first place.

 

[RichardN7]

Im the biggest glory hater here so I'm not making up shit to defend them. Glory as an organization and the dutch guys that were there from the start have always maintained kicks to the arms are considered a block just the same as a kick that hits the shins. The whole modern sport of international kickboxing and k1 also always counted them as a blocked kick also so i do not understand where some of you ever got the idea glory would score them in the first place.

Joe Valtellini
I like his commentary, but it seems he's the source of this dispute bu always saying 'it's very controversial. It's not clear wether they score or not'. Personally, I think THOSE kicks that inflict THAT much damage should be scored.

 

[DastardlyMass]

Joe Valtellini
I like his commentary, but it seems he's the source of this dispute bu always saying 'it's very controversial. It's not clear wether they score or not'. Personally, I think THOSE kicks that inflict THAT much damage should be scored.

yea i personally think if it isn't completely taken clean on the forearms it should score but that is not how the judges view it. I also think a full power body kick should score much higher than jabs or glancing power punches

 

[Kanka]

The only people i've seen saying kicks to the arms don't score are dutch fans and dutch fighters. Do you have a link to any glory official saying it? They clearly don't mention it in the scoring criteria, which is what matters. Not what some random fan or fighter says.

Im the biggest glory hater here so I'm not making up shit to defend them. Glory as an organization and the dutch guys that were there from the start have always maintained kicks to the arms are considered a block just the same as a kick that hits the shins. The whole modern sport of international kickboxing and k1 also always counted them as a blocked kick also so i do not understand where some of you ever got the idea glory would score them in the first place.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Joe Valtellini
I like his commentary, but it seems he's the source of this dispute bu always saying 'it's very controversial. It's not clear wether they score or not'. Personally, I think THOSE kicks that inflict THAT much damage should be scored.

I'm pretty sure he started saying it when RvR was given the decision over Sittichai and a lot of fans started writing angry messages on Glory content. I think he is trying to keep everyone content.

 

[AbeRudder]

It started with Dekkers/Sangtiennoi 3 I think. It's less of a kickboxing thing and more of a dutch thing. Then again when Dekkers kicked Cobans arms in the 4th fight they probably scored.

 

[SuperLuigi]

It started with Dekkers/Sangtiennoi 3 I think. It's less of a kickboxing thing and more of a dutch thing. Then again when Dekkers kicked Cobans arms in the 4th fight they probably scored.

I disagree. How many times have we seen foreigners of varied backgrounds go to Thailand, charge forward with punches while eating kicks the whole fight including round 5 and then act confused when the Thai gets the decision. I see the same thing when Thais go to Cambodia and lose decisions there, same with Japan, China, Europe, America, and Australia. If we are to speak of the true origin it seems to be the underlying divergence of conceptualizing fights between various cultures. I'm actually surprised that things haven't been worse considering there have been so many years of highly international competitions.

 

[DastardlyMass]

The only people i've seen saying kicks to the arms don't score are dutch fans and dutch fighters. Do you have a link to any glory official saying it? They clearly don't mention it in the scoring criteria, which is what matters. Not what some random fan or fighter says.

there are numerous cor hemmers interviews where he says it. Also every fighter that fights out of hemmers gym and the guys who were under glory management have said that they do not score and if anyone knows it is going to be the guys who fight for glorys matchmaker and head of talent operations.

 

[AbeRudder]

I disagree. How many times have we seen foreigners of varied backgrounds go to Thailand, charge forward with punches while eating kicks the whole fight including round 5 and then act confused when the Thai gets the decision. I see the same thing when Thais go to Cambodia and lose decisions there, same with Japan, China, Europe, America, and Australia. If we are to speak of the true origin it seems to be the underlying divergence of conceptualizing fights between various cultures. I'm actually surprised that things haven't been worse considering there have been so many years of highly international competitions.

Thailand obviously has a different way of scoring fights no doubt but in the case of Petpanomrung/RVR it wasn't just us on the forum complaining about that one, the large majority of people who watched that kickboxing fan or not agree that pet won that. Different cultures value the impact of arm kicks differently but from what I've seen only the dutch completely ignore their impact. Sakmongkol beat JWP in the k1 oceanic gp pretty much exclusively through arm kicks, Nokweed took LeBanner to the extension round through arm kicks (the judges might have just wanted to give the underdog an extra round though), Yod beat Marat with arm kicks, Buakaw won a close decision against JWP in 04 gp with kicks. There are instances like JWP/Yod but to me that was just a hometown decision, Australian promotions generally value kicks to the arm.