roger no gi today

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by tekkenfan, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    This is a good point... if you don’t ever train with hh, you’ll be in trouble once you face a good hhooker... none the less, Marvin from 10th planet not long ago visited the academy of some high level grappler (don’t remember his name now) got crushed and went out to say, nothing beats good strong pressure or something among the lines. Hh could make the discrepancy on levels get smaller, but unless you are extremely high level, you’ll get wrecked anyways buy someone with very high level albeit traditional player.
     
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  2. tekkenfan

    tekkenfan Purple Belt

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    i know its not just feel and experience but it is a major major role people get caught in slick moves all the time if it was just by feel then the gracies would still be dominating the scene
     
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  3. Solidus Snake

    Solidus Snake Purple Belt

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    Not sure I understand your point. Heelhooking and generally leglocking has his own set of deep principles.. I mean, it's not like you just know how to proper apply a flashy heelhook, and so you have a shot at subbing a world class dude..
     
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  4. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    Yep. Braulio Estima's academy. He and his main training partner got absolutely crushed from top pressure (no-gi rolls). And Marvin posted after that nothing beats pressure and he'd never felt anything like that before. The rolls are up on Braulio's website. Braulio was even subbing them with wrestling cradles and stuff.
     
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  5. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    Heel hooks are included in that.

    You can't have genuinely effective heel hook offense nor defense against good opposition without understanding most of the fundamental principles of grappling.
     
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  6. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    Braulio went full on ninja on them seems like lol
     
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  7. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    And also for what it's worth Braulio has incredible heel hooks and is very open minded and always wanting to learn new stuff.
     
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  8. DatCutman

    DatCutman White Belt

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    If they were getting heelhooked by people who were not good grapplers, then yes, I would agree that the heelhook is apparently an Excalibur level weapon that should dominate everyone's grappling game...but that isn't the case, is it? The heel hooks you're seeing today are being thrown down by grapplers who have a good understanding of the principles of upperbody AND lowerbody grappling. Otherwise, you could easily go heelhook marcelo garcia, isn't it so? And if the heelhook were the anathema to the modern grappler, why didn't Eddie Cummings win the ADCC gold? Why didn't Rousimar Palhares, someone who revolutionized how we all heel hook, take out Galvao?

    You've confused metagaming with principles. There are always going to be popular techniques, and right now leg locks are popular (something I have mixed feelings about, as a BJJ hipster I liked the days when only I did them, on the other hand I'm glad people will stop glaring at me). The metagame will adapt and ebb and flow. Remember when Deep Half was THE guard? Remember when there was talks of banning 50/50? Or when berimbolos were fresh tech that was blowing everyone's mind? Or how about when the brabo/darce renaissance came, and it was all you saw in competitions?

    I mean, the statement "errybody is getting heelhooked" ignores the fact that it's the entries and leg control itself that is are real change these days, not the heel hook itself which has been around since...forever.
     
  9. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

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    What I meant is that even if you are an extremely good grappler and don't know heel hooks you will get destroyed by someone decent who does them.
     
  10. DatCutman

    DatCutman White Belt

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    That's not true. A mediocre grappler will be beaten by another mediocre grappler that knows heelhooks, but it is hard to beat the best of the best hoping on the element of surprise. Even a lot of the people who enjoyed the fruits of the leglock metagame are finding less wholesale success. Eddie Cumming's most recent win was by RNC. Of Gordon Ryan's victories in 2017, culminating in nearly 30 matches, only 3 were finished by heelhook. Of the 28 submissions of ADCC 2017, only 9 were lower body submissions. Not an awful amount, a respectable amount, but heel hooks don't suddenly elevate mediocre grapplers to champion status.

    You're confusing the metagame, that was exploiting the weaknesses of grapplers by strategy and tactics, with the superiority of technique over principle.

    edited to make a more salient point.
     
  11. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

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    Keep in mind the champions are also aware of legs locks. They might not be enought to elevate mediocre grapplers to champions status but lack of heel hooks awareness degrades champion grapplers to medicore status.
     
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  12. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    Excellent post!

    I don't disagree but I also think that's a pretty small slice of people.

    I don't see many very good grapplers getting heel hooked by people that are also not very good grapplers.

    Most of the good heel hookers have a solid grasp of those same principles. Ryan Hall was 50/50 heel hooking almost everyone he faced when people didn't know the 50/50 yet but he eventually ran into Cobrinha and it didn't. Ryan's spoken a lot about this over the years. I'll try to find an interview link.
     
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  13. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

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  14. tekkenfan

    tekkenfan Purple Belt

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    i remember the first time i rolled with tim kennedy when i was 19 back in early 2011 i was a purple and my god i was gassed by time he even passed me. he was like a mountain, something about that man it doesnt look like hes that super technical but he knows how to use his body on people and your just stuck. he beat roger on the ground at his own game
     
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  15. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    And one of those heel hooks at ADCC was on Jeff Monson who looked practically crippled walking out onto the mat
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  16. DatCutman

    DatCutman White Belt

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    I disagree. Galvao wasn't lowered to "mediocre" status in his match with Palhares, was he?

    Again, I feel like you're confusing the issue. The assertion that knowing a technique (heelhook) is superior to knowing a principles of grappling and why they work, do you think that is true? Do you think you would even be able to enter into your heel hook on a high-level practicioner without a knowledge of the fundamental principles? Of course not!

    What everyone saw was a weakness shared by a large multitude of the competitive grappling circuit get exploited, and that is metagaming, not the superiority of a technique over principles. Otherwise, this trend would have continued on until jiu jitsu became a solved game, where it all centered around who could heelhook whom first. Metagaming, at its simplest, is “I think everyone else will be doing ____, so I’m doing ____.”

    This worked, until it didn't any more. Now you see a huge rise in back control methodology, and a rise in RNC's, because it is the new lowest hanging fruit weakness.

    However, does this mean the RNC is better than heel hooks? Does grappling move forward in one linear progression of submissions, each one better than the last, each technique outclassing all that came before? No, of course not. It's why guys like Xande can hit flowersweep --> armbar and still tap dudes out, at the highest levels of the sport. He understands the principles of grappling; he knows that by utilizing kuzushi, or offbalancing his opponent, their ability to defend is compromised, and he has prepared all the necessary steps before the off balancing to capitalize on that opportunity. It's why if you showed a blue belt that same combo of flower sweep --> armbar, they wouldn't be able to win at the highest levels. There is much more to BJJ than just techniques (and no, it isn't steroids). These underlying principles of how the body moves, of how to use leverage and gravity and fulcrums, they're not only important in BJJ, but any grappling sport. I was part of an interesting conversation with a mountain climber and sumo practicioner, where they told me about the "rest step," which is remarkably similar to the "namba aruki" of sumo, and was germane to me in a conversation about "posting" with your free leg in knee on belly. Principles, not techniques, are the key to grappling regardless of ruleset. But I've gone off the rails at this point, and my workday is almost over!
     
  17. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

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    Many times i'll see, people who don't have much interaction with combat sports, or are first starting to get into it, will often like looking for guys who hit basically any and every move there is on people, will want to see every little different and diverse thing there is.

    Me, i like looking for guys who hit just one move on everybody; i like looking for cases where everything in the same, because that's informative of winning methods, indication of deeper difference making dynamics.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  18. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    @DatCutman if Sherdog was like Reddit with that option to gild someone's posts I would've gilded you dude

    Quality stuff
     
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  19. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

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    That's really interesting and thanks for the link. Very cool to know.

    I still think Ryan's perspective is interesting. Reflecting on that point in his career he thinks that he was able to win some matches way above his overall skill level. By focusing on efficient techniques that weren't mainstream at the time. Inverted guard triangled. 50/50 heel hooks. And then later some darce and rear naked chokes in transition.

    But he said that had he focused on declining a complete game earlier that he may have had a deeper understanding of jiu-jitsu. But he also said he doesn't regret the path he took either.

    Was an interesting interview. Wish I knew where it was.
     
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  20. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

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    I bet Galvao was training heel hooks himself.
    I do not claim that you can pull of moves however good they are without any understanding of grappling, but I view the idea that you can just deal with anything by an understanding of simple principles as bullshit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018

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