Roger GOAT confirmed?

[Ryo]

What does the size difference have to do with me saying that Roger is the greatest Jiu-Jitsu guy of all time gi or no-gi?

Im saying that Rogers career to me is more impressive than Marcelos. I think his 2005 run was most impressive.

 

[nefti]

Didn't Marcelo have an all submission run also?

 

[Uchi Mata]

I understand your point but to me Rogers 2005 run was the pinnacle. All submissions. Werdum, Xande, Jacare,
This is not something Marcelo could have accomplished. I know it is a size issue as well for sure, but I do believe that if Roger had dedicated himself to no-gi during his prime like in 05, he would have many more world titles than anyone. He was always more interested in the gi. Roger in his prime as a blackbelt beat anyone, gi or no-gi.

He couldn't have submitted those guys in particular (size again), but in 2007 MG submitted everyone in his division and everyone in the absolute until he lost in the finals to Drysdale. Maybe Roger could have done better had he been focused solely on no-gi, but maybe Marcelo would have won more gi titles if he'd ignored no-gi. They both made their choice, and without the PJs Marcelo's record dwarf's Roger's. It would be like saying Bobby Fischer was a better chess player than Garry Kasparov because he dominated the scene so entirely in the late 60s and early 70s. That's true, but it's hard to measure just that peak against Kasparov's 25 years of being untouchable at the top. For me at least, longevity matters.

 

[Ryo]

He couldn't have submitted those guys in particular (size again), but in 2007 MG submitted everyone in his division and everyone in the absolute until he lost in the finals to Drysdale. Maybe Roger could have done better had he been focused solely on no-gi, but maybe Marcelo would have won more gi titles if he'd ignored no-gi. They both made their choice, and without the PJs Marcelo's record dwarf's Roger's. It would be like saying Bobby Fischer was a better chess player than Garry Kasparov because he dominated the scene so entirely in the late 60s and early 70s. That's true, but it's hard to measure just that peak against Kasparov's 25 years of being untouchable at the top. For me at least, longevity matters.

Fair enough. I suppose I just prefer Roger's style. Plus I don't like Marcelos views on Judo. Roger's views on Judo and his judo training are much closer to my view of a perfect grappler.

Lot of respect for Marcelo though. Def a top 3 all time in anybody's book.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Fair enough. I suppose I just prefer Roger's style. Plus I don't like Marcelos views on Judo. Roger's views on Judo and his judo training are much closer to my view of a perfect grappler.

Lot of respect for Marcelo though. Def a top 3 all time in anybody's book.

What does Marcelo think about Judo? I've never heard him comment. I always thought he has great standup specifically tailored to BJJ whereas Roger would get in trouble for trying to use too much classical Judo. But as you said, it's largely a style preference. Even if it did get him in trouble sometimes Roger also hit some very pretty throws.

 

[ChainFlow]

What does Marcelo think about Judo? I've never heard him comment. I always thought he has great standup specifically tailored to BJJ whereas Roger would get in trouble for trying to use too much classical Judo. But as you said, it's largely a style preference. Even if it did get him in trouble sometimes Roger also hit some very pretty throws.

Marcelo is on the record preferring wrestling to judo, though the famous vid where he says so is quite old by now so his views may have evolved.

He cites the quicker learning curve and the increased relative utility in no gi.

From a speculative position, I posit that he prefers wrestling because more directly gels with his ground game. He was already arm dragging, snapping down, and coming up in single legs off of sweeps when needed. He was already heavily utilizing butterfly, which is basically wrestling when done right. He was already using a lot of wrestling controls versus scramblers. He prefers takedowns like arm drags / singles that end with an open guard or the opponent facing at least partly towards the mat, where judo emphasizes planting someone hard on their back.

There are plenty of BJJ guys, especially in gi, who have tons of success with an entirely judo-based takedown game, but they have very different games from Marcelo. They do not pass like he likes to pass, they do not like to let the opponent try to come up into you so that you guillotine him, they do not take the back like he does. They do not hate being in closed guard as much as he does. Often, their games are focused more on pressure and entirely dominating a limb than Marcelo's floaty, neck-focused strategy.

That's my theory, anyway.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Marcelo is on the record preferring wrestling to judo, though the famous vid where he says so is quite old by now so his views may have evolved.

He cites the quicker learning curve and the increased relative utility in no gi.

From a speculative position, I posit that he prefers wrestling because more directly gels with his ground game. He was already arm dragging, snapping down, and coming up in single legs off of sweeps when needed. He was already heavily utilizing butterfly, which is basically wrestling when done right. He was already using a lot of wrestling controls versus scramblers. He prefers takedowns like arm drags / singles that end with an open guard or the opponent facing at least partly towards the mat, where judo emphasizes planting someone hard on their back.

There are plenty of BJJ guys, especially in gi, who have tons of success with an entirely judo-based takedown game, but they have very different games from Marcelo. They do not pass like he likes to pass, they do not like to let the opponent try to come up into you so that you guillotine him, they do not take the back like he does. They do not hate being in closed guard as much as he does. Often, their games are focused more on pressure and entirely dominating a limb than Marcelo's floaty, neck-focused strategy.

That's my theory, anyway.

Okay. I didn't know if he was on the record saying Judo didn't work against big guys like he's said about kimuras and head and arm chokes or something. FWIW I think he's right that wrestling is much closer to the kind of standup you need for BJJ than Judo. The footsweeps and of course gripping in the gi from Judo are super useful for BJJ, most of the big throws carry much, much more risk than reward under BJJ rules (morote seio nage is almost the sole exception IMO).

 

[ChainFlow]

Okay. I didn't know if he was on the record saying Judo didn't work against big guys like he's said about kimuras and head and arm chokes or something. FWIW I think he's right that wrestling is much closer to the kind of standup you need for BJJ than Judo. The footsweeps and of course gripping in the gi from Judo are super useful for BJJ, most of the big throws carry much, much more risk than reward under BJJ rules (morote seio nage is almost the sole exception IMO).

I'm not aware of any statements he's made comparing it to arm-in chokes or anything, no. I've also found that certain techniques in Judo are outsizedly useful in BJJ - de ashi, hikkomi gaeshi, kouchi, yoko tomoe, etc. Basically the Kashiwazaki playbook. (Handily for me, that was who I emulated in Judo anyway.) However, there certainly have been people like Calasans who've used big throws like harai, osoto, seoi, o goshi (!!) to great effect in gi and no gi. Even Roger had some success with his judo applications. And we're also seeing some more dynamic players in the no gi scene use throws like uchi mata to access leg entanglements off the transition to the ground.

I think that if you were to train judo and emphasize things like transitions to newaza off of throws you were just using to knock them down (not on their back), minor ashiwaza like kouchi / de ashi, and sutemi waza, with judicious usage of throws like osoto, morote seoi nage, or tai otoshi mixed in, you'd have a great recipe for BJJ tachiwaza. The problem is that almost no judo places seem to play like that, other than apparently Pedro's.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I'm not aware of any statements he's made comparing it to arm-in chokes or anything, no. I've also found that certain techniques in Judo are outsizedly useful in BJJ - de ashi, hikkomi gaeshi, kouchi, yoko tomoe, etc. Basically the Kashiwazaki playbook. (Handily for me, that was who I emulated in Judo anyway.) However, there certainly have been people like Calasans who've used big throws like harai, osoto, seoi, o goshi (!!) to great effect in gi and no gi. Even Roger had some success with his judo applications. And we're also seeing some more dynamic players in the no gi scene use throws like uchi mata to access leg entanglements off the transition to the ground.

I think that if you were to train judo and emphasize things like transitions to newaza off of throws you were just using to knock them down (not on their back), minor ashiwaza like kouchi / de ashi, and sutemi waza, with judicious usage of throws like osoto, morote seoi nage, or tai otoshi mixed in, you'd have a great recipe for BJJ tachiwaza. The problem is that almost no judo places seem to play like that, other than apparently Pedro's.

I don't think any of them really play like that. Stevens largely developed his own Judo/BJJ hybrid from what I've heard.

I should have probably also mentioned the sacrifice throws. I've used those to great effect in BJJ competition (incidentally Kashiwazaki was my favorite player too, he's even in my signature).

I think that when you see people like Calasans pulling off hip throws in competition you have to keep in mind the skill difference. He's really, really good at Judo and anything can work if you're better enough than your opponent at it. Hell, Yoel Romero has literally walked up to people, bent over, and ankle picked them to their backs with no setup in MMA fights because he's just that good. But it's not something you'd ever teach someone to do.

If you watch the majority of guys with pretty good Judo who use it consistently in BJJ like Galvao, Rodolfo back when he was competing, Jacare, Lepri, etc. they basically all use the same three throws: kouchi gari, ouchi gari, and morote seio nage. There's a reason for that: those are throws that work well against BJJ postures while being very safe if you fail. That last part is why I don't think you see many hip throws: giving up your back is not worth at attempt at two points. I do think you see some tomoe nage type throws, they usually just get classified as guard pulls and sweeps so they're a bit harder to pick out. But they definitely work too. Marcelo used to arm drag people into a 2-1 and then hit a sumi but all anyone said was be pulled butterfly and swept. I guess it all comes to the same thing.

 

[QingTian]

If you watch the majority of guys with pretty good Judo who use it consistently in BJJ like Galvao, Rodolfo back when he was competing, Jacare, Lepri, etc. they basically all use the same three throws: kouchi gari, ouchi gari, and morote seio nage. There's a reason for that: those are throws that work well against BJJ postures while being very safe if you fail.

I don't know if this is true by causality or correlation. That kind of Judo is common in that part of the world, and is also taught to kids. Naturally if someone only had a bit of Judo or transitioned from Judo to BJJ, they retain that style.

You could equally say that Russian Judo is effective in Sambo, which it is, but I'd contend it's just as good in BJJ too.

Is Japanese Judo the odd duck in this situation? Maybe, but I like trying it in BJJ as it forces me to be better.

 

[Ryo]

Okay. I didn't know if he was on the record saying Judo didn't work against big guys like he's said about kimuras and head and arm chokes or something. FWIW I think he's right that wrestling is much closer to the kind of standup you need for BJJ than Judo. The footsweeps and of course gripping in the gi from Judo are super useful for BJJ, most of the big throws carry much, much more risk than reward under BJJ rules (morote seio nage is almost the sole exception IMO).

No-gi, for sure. No doubt. My problem with his statements (not really a problem, just disagree) is when it comes to the gi. Judo is the most sophisticated form of standup jacket wrestling. The grip fighting is an art unto itself and so important in Judo and BJJ. Marcelo prefers wrestling for both and as was pointed out earlier, for his style I guess that's fine but for for most people in the gi if they were to put in real time learning Judo there game would be much better for it. Or atleast better from my point of view of what gi sub grappling should be. It's funny that you guys mentioned Kashiwazaki, because he is the perfect Judo type to emulate for JJ guys. He can throw with the best of em but his game revolves around entry into newaza.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I don't know if this is true by causality or correlation. That kind of Judo is common in that part of the world, and is also taught to kids. Naturally if someone only had a bit of Judo or transitioned from Judo to BJJ, they retain that style.

You could equally say that Russian Judo is effective in Sambo, which it is, but I'd contend it's just as good in BJJ too.

Is Japanese Judo the odd duck in this situation? Maybe, but I like trying it in BJJ as it forces me to be better.

Sambo has a very different rule set than BJJ that rewards big throws in a way BJJ doesn't, and without the risk of remaining in a bad position the entire match because you failed a throw. Sambo rules are almost a cross between Judo and freestyle wrestling. I think it's a great rule set, but it's not very analagous to BJJ.

Though I do think Russian Judo works pretty well in BJJ mostly because it's efficacious against bent over, defensive postures. I know you won't agree, but I think classical Japanese style Judo is probably the absolute worst style of Judo for BJJ (which is probably why you don't see anyone fight that way, even good Judoka).

 

[Uchi Mata]

No-gi, for sure. No doubt. My problem with his statements (not really a problem, just disagree) is when it comes to the gi. Judo is the most sophisticated form of standup jacket wrestling. The grip fighting is an art unto itself and so important in Judo and BJJ. Marcelo prefers wrestling for both and as was pointed out earlier, for his style I guess that's fine but for for most people in the gi if they were to put in real time learning Judo there game would be much better for it. Or atleast better from my point of view of what gi sub grappling should be. It's funny that you guys mentioned Kashiwazaki, because he is the perfect Judo type to emulate for JJ guys. He can throw with the best of em but his game revolves around entry into newaza.

I mention Kashiwazaki because his repertoire was based on ne waza entry but it was substantially different from the classical Judo that is taught most places. Like I said, I think Judo is the best place to learn grips and sweeps, but in terms of how you're setting up your takedowns, your stance and movement, and what takedowns you're using I prefer wrestling even in the gi. The highest % throws in international Judo are seio nage and uchi mata. In BJJ? You mostly see ankle picks and single legs. There's a reason for that, and it's not just that everyone sucks at Judo (Brazil's actually a pretty good Judo country but not a great wrestling one): bent over postures, unrestricted rules on leg attacks, and the necessity of controlling the action after the takedown make wrestling attacks more reliable ways to start on top safely with two points than Judo throws.

 

[QingTian]

Sambo has a very different rule set than BJJ that rewards big throws in a way BJJ doesn't, and without the risk of remaining in a bad position the entire match because you failed a throw. Sambo rules are almost a cross between Judo and freestyle wrestling. I think it's a great rule set, but it's not very analagous to BJJ.

Though I do think Russian Judo works pretty well in BJJ mostly because it's efficacious against bent over, defensive postures. I know you won't agree, but I think classical Japanese style Judo is probably the absolute worst style of Judo for BJJ (which is probably why you don't see anyone fight that way, even good Judoka).

What I meant to say is that what you are seeing in BJJ standup is really Latin American Judo. Similarly you'd see Russian Judo in Sambo because that's where those guys come from. Otherwise Japanese Judo would be more common there even if it doesn't work for BJJ.

I did say Japanese Judo is the odd duck! Though not necessarily from the risk standpoint, as turning in and failing just as often means you retreat or go into guard. I think it's more that your window to attack is short, and sometimes the other guy is effectively sitting while standing (ready to drop their weight).

I'm not convinced yet that classical Judo won't work at all - plenty of players can make you pay even while bent. But it is a much harder payoff indeed.

I think my bigger problem is not so much the risk, but the thin gi, grip breaks, and the ease of guard pull. You have to be really damn good to play the Japanese style in that situation. People who can grip and throw for real are already like 3rd dan or something.

 

[Lifer]

Lot of respect for Marcelo though. Def a top 3 all time in anybody's book.

srs question, if MG is 3rd who's the other person that can be put above him besides Roger? where does Rafa Mendes rank among the atg?

 

[nefti]

Fair enough. I suppose I just prefer Roger's style. Plus I don't like Marcelos views on Judo. Roger's views on Judo and his judo training are much closer to my view of a perfect grappler.

Lot of respect for Marcelo though. Def a top 3 all time in anybody's book.

Doesn't Marcelo prefer wrestling instead of judo?

 

[Ryo]

srs question, if MG is 3rd who's the other person that can be put above him besides Roger? where does Rafa Mendes rank among the atg?

Well, when I say top 3 in anybody's book it could be 1 2 or 3. In my book, Roger is number 1 and then probably either Xande or Jacare or Marcelo could vie for 2 or 3 depending on how you look at it.

If you look at it simply from a perspective of who's won the most medals, then I guess Xande would be number 1still? But there are other factors to consider so it's hard to look at it like that. I honestly don't think Rafael Mendes had done enough to be in the top 3. Outside of subbing Cobrinha. Would love to see him against Marcelo. Just for the size and style match-up.

 

[Ryo]

Doesn't Marcelo prefer wrestling instead of judo?

Yes, he does according to an old video on YouTube when he still had the fro. Not sure if he still feels that way but I would be surprised if he's changed his mind. I just disagree with most of his reasoning. As somebody said before his style tends to lend itself to wrestling more. Im more of a gi guy and I come from a Judo background so I just appreciate guys like Roger, Xande, Saulo, or Claudio Calasans who have put in real time training in Judo and has really molded into their style.

 

[nefti]

I think marcelo's style is better for overall grappling in both gi and no gi. His success in both ibjjf and adcc is proof of that.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Well, when I say top 3 in anybody's book it could be 1 2 or 3. In my book, Roger is number 1 and then probably either Xande or Jacare or Marcelo could vie for 2 or 3 depending on how you look at it.

If you look at it simply from a perspective of who's won the most medals, then I guess Xande would be number 1still? But there are other factors to consider so it's hard to look at it like that. I honestly don't think Rafael Mendes had done enough to be in the top 3. Outside of subbing Cobrinha. Would love to see him against Marcelo. Just for the size and style match-up.

I'd say that if you wanted to add a third person to the mix as an all time great, it would probably be either Rafa or Leandro Lo, and I'd give the nod to Leandro just since he fights outside his weight class and keeps moving up. And outside of the finals of absolute divisions, he basically never loses. Biggest knock on Lo is that he's clearly juicing, and his no-gi record is spotty at best. Xande is great but I don't feel like he's ever had a dominant period where he just killed everyone. He'll win weight class one year, absolute the next, then medal in both but not win either, etc. He's never shown himself at any point in his career to be a step above his closest competition which I think you need to be an all time great.