Robert Drysdale's Interview About His Documentary on The True History of BJJ

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by kpoz12, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    16,157
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    Nah it was Carlos and helio.

    I mean bjj is what it is due to its unique point system that rewards submission first and positional dominance but still let people fight of their back so to speak .

    Carlson created some great fighters in vale tudo, MMA and bjj.

    Rolls was known for his cross training in judo and other grappler arts.

    But I don't think they had much impact on what the sport is today.
     
  2. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    16,157
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    But we could say the same about Kano and judo.

    It is not like Kano went and smashed people with his jiu jitsu skills.

    He created a curriculum of techniques and taught students which went on to fight for him.

    He'll. Even people are arguing that his first BB were not pure judoka but train with other masters before him.

    But yeah...the gracies will still claim to have created bjj which is incorrect. They created gjj only.

    Oh well, they must have created a federation for JJ in Brasil so maybe that is why they think they own bjj.
     
  3. trustdoesntrust

    trustdoesntrust Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    751
    Isn't there a famous story about early judo thoroughly defeating the jiu jitsu-trained Tokyo police? That sounds very reminiscent of early Gracie victories. I'd say that what defines a "martial art" (as opposed to a contact sport) is that realistic idea of absolutely winning a fight via physiological manipulation rather than brute strength. Even the TMA stuff we make fun of typically understands this martial idea, basing its ridiculous tactics on logical ideas of exploiting leverage and weak points in the body rather than overpowerring force. As Drysdale suggests, perhaps the greatest legacy of the Gracies is protecting and cultivating this strategic idea, as well as their brazen willingness to authentically test.
     
    lechien and HunterAcosta like this.
  4. xMTDx

    xMTDx A grappling dad

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2006
    Messages:
    726
    Likes Received:
    232
    Location:
    Sunshine Coast, Aus
    Luis Franca trained at Gracie academy.
     
    HunterAcosta likes this.
  5. Ryo

    Ryo Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    5,660
    Likes Received:
    405
    Did he? I mean it wouldnt surprise me. It was a pretty small community back then. I know his main teachers were Geo Omori and Soshiro Satake and I guess Maeda to some extent.
     
  6. selfcritical

    selfcritical Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    3,681
    Likes Received:
    782
    It's just what you call teachers in general in brazil. Different languages use different phrasings. It's super not a big deal.
     
  7. selfcritical

    selfcritical Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    3,681
    Likes Received:
    782
    I mean, you use the portuguese words for omoplata and no one gets confused. Word migration just isn't something to get annoyed over.
     
  8. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,714
    Likes Received:
    4,110
    That’s correct and I think right from the beginning they always said they created gjj, not Bjj...

    To be honest they did not create a single technique, that should be quite novios for anyone, what they trademark was a strategic approach to fighting... don’t know back then, but vale tudo was probably only done in Brasil, not that there were other places to have vale tudo fights, but nothing at the stage of Brazil probably. Anyways gjj was trained for fighting, having vale tudo in mind, thus so many valetudo fighters coming out of that gym, just like luto livre... by the 40s and 50s judo was already an Olympic sport, and kosen guys were not bitch slapping while rolling at the universities...

    Bjj and gjj gained reputation as a fighting style not just grappling... and grappling and fighting are not the same thing...
     
    mattemate likes this.
  9. kpoz12

    kpoz12 The No Life King Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,063
    Likes Received:
    922
    Location:
    Kimura, BC
    Who invented leverage?
     
  10. mattemate

    mattemate Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    4,202
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I thought that the interview was really intriguing.

    Drysdale gave the Gracie's their due respect. He said he thought that there biggest contribution was more the resistance to succumbing to Judo rules than any technical advancements they made.

    As far as pure grappling technique goes he says they were not nearly as advanced as Kosen Judo guys until the 80s. He cites some video footage from the 1950s of a Kosen Judo player getting a berimbolo, for instance.

    I'll be interested to see this documentary.

    But what I think will be the biggest contribution is a historical record with actual citations and references. Drysdale had clearly done his homework. I appreciate the scholarly approach he took rather than taking old stories verbatim. So many times he says we have heard this but it cannot be confirmed. It's clear he actually went back and searched do newspapers and other original documentation.

    I also enjoyed hearing more about George Gracie than I've ever heard before. It seems like he was the original badass of the family but did not have the marketing skill or the big picture the Carlos and helio did
     
  11. Evan_The_Kid_1

    Evan_The_Kid_1 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,753
    Likes Received:
    82
    Location:
    Somewhere between Heaven and Hell
    Hercules
     
  12. trustdoesntrust

    trustdoesntrust Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    751
    What the Gracies created is self-evident in the very name of the martial art: Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. It literally says "this is our style of jiu-jitsu."
     
  13. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,714
    Likes Received:
    4,110
    No one in Brazil refers to Bjj as bjj, it’s just jiu jitsu and Gracie’s normally call them self Gracie jiu jitsu, well at least the helios side..
     
  14. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    12,808
    Likes Received:
    1,042
    I'm okay with Professor used as an untranslated word. We have a decent amount of these words already.

    Omoplata and torreando would be Portuguese examples. There are plenty from Japanese too like gi and even the name of the art itself.

    Brazilian Grappling would be the closest English translation, but we all just say Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu without thinking twice.

    A few students of mine call me Professor because they came from another school where that was common. I'm fine with it because I know what they mean by it. Most people just use my first name, but I don't correct anyone calling me Professor. It would be the right word in Portuguese.
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  15. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,981
    Likes Received:
    1,584
    I feel a little strange being called professor. I don't have my own academy yet but someone last month (who is a little strange to be fair) said "I'm honored to call you professor."

    I wanted to say "Please, you don't have to." But I just said thanks and kept it moving.

    I prefer to be called by my first name, whether it's from a student or from an instructor of my own.

    My least favorite is "Mr. Insert First Name Here." I see this a lot with kids programs. Miss Jennifer. Mister John. Etc. I guess I see the logic? Respectful with the Mister/Miss but also casual with the first name. But it sounds weird to me.
     
  16. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,981
    Likes Received:
    1,584
    Rolls introduced the triangle into BJJ right?

    Because in Judo most triangles are inverted or reverse triangles done against the turtle. But Rolls saw a book or something with the classic triangle from bottom and brought it into the fold and that sort of killed the "Gracie gift pass" ?

    I've read that story in a few places.
     
  17. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    12,808
    Likes Received:
    1,042
    I hear that a lot in the South just in regular society too. It sounded really weird to me at first, but I guess I got used to it.

    Most people in the gym just call me by my first name. If anyone uses a title, it's usually coach.

    A few people use either professor or sensei which are equivalent to coach in the context. People who had Brazilian coaches before or actually are Brazilian are more likely to use professor; people who came from other Japanese martial arts are more likely to use sensei.
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  18. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,981
    Likes Received:
    1,584
    I grew up n the south so that's probably why I heard it a lot.
     
  19. AnotherOldGuy

    AnotherOldGuy Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Messages:
    2,533
    Likes Received:
    1,664
    No, the triangle against what's called the guard was well known in judo long before (for instance it was standard enough to make it into Kudo's judo ne-waza books in the early 60's, where he goes through it for a number of starting positions - and the techniques were very old even at that time). The guard was a fairly common position in judo ne-waza until the IJF decided in the early 80's that ten seconds was all the time anyone ever needed on the ground.

    What the Gracies and the rest of the BJJ community did was make much more sophisticated setups for getting into the triangle (and most other locks and submissions). The locks and chokes themselves pre-date not only BJJ, but judo, and by centuries or even thousands of years (you can find examples of some locks in ancient Greek art, making them over 2000 years old.

    Which isn't surprising, people were as smart thousands of years ago as they are now, and the human joints only move in so many ways. The improvements judo has done with jacket throwing, wrestling with no-jacket throwing, and BJJ with ground is about how to efficiently get into (or escape) the subs, not the subs themselves.
     
    mataleaos and BJJ_Rage like this.
  20. trustdoesntrust

    trustdoesntrust Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    751
    To me, the triangle from closed guard is the most universally effective strategy in jiu-jitsu ( with RNC from back mount a very close second) because it will work 100% of the time against any untrained opponent. That Royce vs. Severn gameplan is to me inexorably linked with what fundamentally makes BJJ unique and effective-- it's not just the technique, but the seemingly counterlogical way it's implemented (slowly, from the back, choking wit the legs rather than arms, seemingly giving up a guard pass)
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
    AnotherOldGuy likes this.

Share This Page