RIZIN 2017 in Yokohama: Sakura (DISCUSSION) - APRIL 16 - 2am ET

Kawajiri looked SO much better being back in a ring. His wrestling style is so much better suited to a ring than a cage. It's built around single-legs and forcing the opponent's posture to change (to sum it up succinctly), and both of those things are easier to do in a ring compared to a cage. There's not a wall propping you up and keeping your legs in on all sides like in a cage. That was the biggest reason Kawajiri's UFC career was so lackluster compared to his non-UFC career;

Headlining isn't about what your ranking is, brew. It's about how much attention you can draw, and Kawajiri's still a pretty big draw in Japan.
Kawajiri's very close, competitive fight with Swanson also showed he's got a lotta sand still (to me at least), considering Swanson's ranked, like, 4th or 5th or 6th in the world right now and he gave him all he could handle. AND in a cage, where Kawajiri's style's really not at its best.

I think more important to Kawajiri's UFC success then ring vs. cage is opponent. He lost to the top guys and beat the mid-ranked or unproven guys. Same seems to apply to the latter portion of his career.

No disrespect, but Anthony Birchak wasin't someone who made a lot of noise in the UFC and I'm pretty sure Kawajiri would beat him there too.

But you're right that Kawajiri is probably a bigger selling point in japan then I'm aware though so that makes sense. Just personally I've only ever seen his UFC bouts, the two vs. Gilbert Melendez and the one vs. Eddie Alvarez, so I wasin't ever personally captivated by him. It didn't help in the promotion to hear that he lost in his Rizin debut as well.

Not trying to be negative though, just that was my opinion when ordering the card and upon finishing the event. Other then that detail I liked the show as a whole.
 
Well, it was a tap, but it wasn't tight enough which is why she was able to get out of it.
Rena-Tap.gif
Ultimately I don't think armbar was actually loosened because of tap. Its an impressive escape.
 
I think more important to Kawajiri's UFC success then ring vs. cage is opponent. He lost to the top guys and beat the mid-ranked or unproven guys. Same seems to apply to the latter portion of his career.

No disrespect, but Anthony Birchak wasin't someone who made a lot of noise in the UFC and I'm pretty sure Kawajiri would beat him there too.

But you're right that Kawajiri is probably a bigger selling point in japan then I'm aware though so that makes sense. Just personally I've only ever seen his UFC bouts, the two vs. Gilbert Melendez and the one vs. Eddie Alvarez, so I wasin't ever personally captivated by him. It didn't help in the promotion to hear that he lost in his Rizin debut as well.

Not trying to be negative though, just that was my opinion when ordering the card and upon finishing the event. Other then that detail I liked the show as a whole.

Kawajiri is one of the greats of Japanese MMA but he was #1 in the world 12 years ago, and since then he has lost all his biggest fights.
Gomi, Alvarez, Aoki, Melendez, Kron.

He has plenty of good wins in that time but it's fair to say you missed the boat.

You should watch the Gomi fight.
 
He has plenty of good wins in that time but it's fair to say you missed the boat.

You should watch the Gomi fight.

I just watched it. Awesome fight. Second half full of riveting sequences. Was genuinely confused Kawajiri lost though cause even though I thought that was the result, I thought you were recommending me one of his wins.
 
Well, it was a tap, but it wasn't tight enough which is why she was able to get out of it.
Rena-Tap.gif
Eh, one quick pat hardly counts as tapping, I doubt Perjes even noticed it as it was to RENA's own chest. I don't think she had planned to tap out at all
 
Just watched the show. Quality event and I'm really looking forward for the next one. Hoping for JMMA to rise once again!
 
WTF ARE THEY SAYING!

King Reina made this event for me. Glad I paid for it (watched later tho).

And Rena stomps. And her super happy/cute/crazy-good opponent I'd never heard of before.

And the usual WTF is going on moments.

Good times!
 
I think more important to Kawajiri's UFC success then ring vs. cage is opponent. He lost to the top guys and beat the mid-ranked or unproven guys. Same seems to apply to the latter portion of his career.

No disrespect, but Anthony Birchak wasin't someone who made a lot of noise in the UFC and I'm pretty sure Kawajiri would beat him there too.

Well, you'd be wrong about that, brew. I spoilered what I said cuz' it's pretty long, since it goes into a lot of details about wrasslin' form, so you can just take my word for it if you don't wanna read it.
It's not about vague things like "opponent quality", it's about what they actually did while they were in the cage. And not only does the single-leg have a proven history of not working as well in the cage cuz' the cage interferes with the mechanics of the move (singles are all about getting your opponent off-balance through either turning them or getting a different angle they didn't expect and can't sprawl on, and it's way harder to do that when they have something to lean against, like a cage), but-- and this would even happen in the fights Kawajiri would win too, by the way, and against guys like Jason Knight who don't have the wrasslin' of an Olympian like Kazuyuki Miyata, either. Every time Kawajiri would try to use his favorite single-leg moves, he'd have to work way harder to complete it (if he'd even complete it) because, for example, he'd shoot for an outside-single, transition to a high-crotch, wrap one of his legs around the leg he shot in on, then transition his arms to a waist-lock and, as he'd use his ridic' strength to rotate their bodies and (with his wrapped-leg locking it in place) throw them off-balance to secure the takedown, ideally landing in half-guard, their bodies wouldn't rotate because they'd start pressing their shoulders into the cage to keep themselves upright. He did this in just about every fight he had in the UFC, and that happened every time.

The Dennis Siver fight was the best example of it. Kawajiri'd get a single and drop down to work on it, like he always does, and Siver would just press his body against the cage to defend it and they'd be in a stalemate, but Kawajiri would be the one wasting more energy cuz' he'd be working on the single-leg while Siver was just keeping himself upright. It wasn't until Kawajiri started to switch it up and transitioned to double-legs against the cage that he was able to take Siver down, and even then, because that's not really Kawajiri's style, they looked awkward and unclean compared to a lot of other guys who use 'em.
If you live near a fence, try this out: lean against the fence and force a lot of your weight into your right shoulder while pushing it to the left, without letting your left shoulder lift from the fence. Pushing almost enough to to force your left shoulder off the fence and rotate your body. Then lift your left leg off the ground. Then imagine how you'd be falling on the ground if the fence weren't there. It gives you an idea of the situation.

A lot of shootfighters who fight in a cage who have been able to show a good single-leg have all had to develop really idiosyncratic methods of utilizing it so that it doesn't get nullified. Like Shinya Aoki; he uses his height and ridiculous grip strength to both pull up the leg as he forces his shoulder into their hips to drive them down, landing himself in a leg-ride, then he uses his legendary top-game to transition to half-guard or mount, then to their back. And Daniel Cormier, who uses the strength that comes from his wide center of gravity to get lifts off of a single-leg and slam his often-much-larger-opponents, like in a lot of his most famous gifs, and works as a chain-wrestler outside of that. And Ben Askren-- his nickname "funky" isn't just cuz' of his hair, it's cuz' he's a master of funk wrestling (look it up.) I'd include Masakatsu Ueda in there, but I haven't watched enough of his cage fights intently to really feel like I can include him (the fights of his I have watched intently were determined more by his striking-- roundhouse kicks to the body and 2-3s eff-tee-double-you.)
Otherwise they tend to just abandon 'em and keep it as an ancillary tool, relying primarily on double-legs, like Chael Sonnen. Or Georges St-Pierre, perhaps most notably (and he didn't even come from a wrestling background.)

The cage is also why double-legs aren't as effective in a ring or in real wrasslin' as they are in caged-MMA, which's why you see 'em so much more in the UFC or Bellator than you ever did in Pride or DREAM or Shooto or in any wrasslin' tournament. The ultimate defense to the double-leg takedown is a sprawl; it's, literally, the way you shut down a double-leg takedown. You time it out, sprawl your legs out while pushing down on top of your opponent's body, like a cat when you drop it on the ground, and they're forced to either abandon it and re-shoot or to use the close space to transition to a single-leg and get some other stuff going (Ben Askren does this a lot.) And, you know, you can't really sprawl your legs out when your back's to a cage. You drop down and shoot your legs out... and they just hit a cage. They didn't shoot out. So you're in that awkward position when your legs are half-bent and you're kneel'd down and look silly, then the opponent jumps on top of you. Which, for obvious reasons, doesn't happen on a wrestling mat or in a square ring.
A lot of guys that are known for having good wrestling don't even try to shoot if their opponent's not cut off into the cage. If their opponent's not charging forward, making it easy to just time it out and drop down, ala Georges St-Pierre or Demetrious Johnson, they know how likely it is they'll just sprawl and win some points while they're on top of you and you feel silly for wasting that much energy and having some guy leaning on top of your back, so they don't even try to do it.

Birchak was also a 4-time Greco-Roman state champion in high school, so he was a legit wrassler, and, considering the entire fight took place in that domain and was about Kawajiri's wrestling vs. Birchak's, that's a very relevant point. Birchak also holds a knockout victory over Joe Soto-- who was a Bellator champion and a top-15 featherweight during that time, and had just come off a very competitive title match with TJ Dillashaw and is currently on a three-fight winning streak in the UFC-- and he'd left the UFC off of a win, so he was more than just a middling guy. Considering how much noise-making in the UFC is about shit-talking and being in brain-damage-causing-wars-- which apparently doesn't even factor in that much once you get beneath featherweight, and still doesn't matter that much if the guy does one or both of those things but came from Bellator-- using the amount of noise made in the UFC as a basis for quality is a real silly way to determine a fighter's intrinsic value.
 
Really enjoyed the fights. Just finished watching them.
 
Well, you'd be wrong about that, brew. I spoilered what I said cuz' it's pretty long, since it goes into a lot of details about wrasslin' form, so you can just take my word for it if you don't wanna read it.
It's not about vague things like "opponent quality", it's about what they actually did while they were in the cage. And not only does the single-leg have a proven history of not working as well in the cage cuz' the cage interferes with the mechanics of the move (singles are all about getting your opponent off-balance through either turning them or getting a different angle they didn't expect and can't sprawl on, and it's way harder to do that when they have something to lean against, like a cage), but-- and this would even happen in the fights Kawajiri would win too, by the way, and against guys like Jason Knight who don't have the wrasslin' of an Olympian like Kazuyuki Miyata, either. Every time Kawajiri would try to use his favorite single-leg moves, he'd have to work way harder to complete it (if he'd even complete it) because, for example, he'd shoot for an outside-single, transition to a high-crotch, wrap one of his legs around the leg he shot in on, then transition his arms to a waist-lock and, as he'd use his ridic' strength to rotate their bodies and (with his wrapped-leg locking it in place) throw them off-balance to secure the takedown, ideally landing in half-guard, their bodies wouldn't rotate because they'd start pressing their shoulders into the cage to keep themselves upright. He did this in just about every fight he had in the UFC, and that happened every time.

The Dennis Siver fight was the best example of it. Kawajiri'd get a single and drop down to work on it, like he always does, and Siver would just press his body against the cage to defend it and they'd be in a stalemate, but Kawajiri would be the one wasting more energy cuz' he'd be working on the single-leg while Siver was just keeping himself upright. It wasn't until Kawajiri started to switch it up and transitioned to double-legs against the cage that he was able to take Siver down, and even then, because that's not really Kawajiri's style, they looked awkward and unclean compared to a lot of other guys who use 'em.
If you live near a fence, try this out: lean against the fence and force a lot of your weight into your right shoulder while pushing it to the left, without letting your left shoulder lift from the fence. Pushing almost enough to to force your left shoulder off the fence and rotate your body. Then lift your left leg off the ground. Then imagine how you'd be falling on the ground if the fence weren't there. It gives you an idea of the situation.

A lot of shootfighters who fight in a cage who have been able to show a good single-leg have all had to develop really idiosyncratic methods of utilizing it so that it doesn't get nullified. Like Shinya Aoki; he uses his height and ridiculous grip strength to both pull up the leg as he forces his shoulder into their hips to drive them down, landing himself in a leg-ride, then he uses his legendary top-game to transition to half-guard or mount, then to their back. And Daniel Cormier, who uses the strength that comes from his wide center of gravity to get lifts off of a single-leg and slam his often-much-larger-opponents, like in a lot of his most famous gifs, and works as a chain-wrestler outside of that. And Ben Askren-- his nickname "funky" isn't just cuz' of his hair, it's cuz' he's a master of funk wrestling (look it up.) I'd include Masakatsu Ueda in there, but I haven't watched enough of his cage fights intently to really feel like I can include him (the fights of his I have watched intently were determined more by his striking-- roundhouse kicks to the body and 2-3s eff-tee-double-you.)
Otherwise they tend to just abandon 'em and keep it as an ancillary tool, relying primarily on double-legs, like Chael Sonnen. Or Georges St-Pierre, perhaps most notably (and he didn't even come from a wrestling background.)

The cage is also why double-legs aren't as effective in a ring or in real wrasslin' as they are in caged-MMA, which's why you see 'em so much more in the UFC or Bellator than you ever did in Pride or DREAM or Shooto or in any wrasslin' tournament. The ultimate defense to the double-leg takedown is a sprawl; it's, literally, the way you shut down a double-leg takedown. You time it out, sprawl your legs out while pushing down on top of your opponent's body, like a cat when you drop it on the ground, and they're forced to either abandon it and re-shoot or to use the close space to transition to a single-leg and get some other stuff going (Ben Askren does this a lot.) And, you know, you can't really sprawl your legs out when your back's to a cage. You drop down and shoot your legs out... and they just hit a cage. They didn't shoot out. So you're in that awkward position when your legs are half-bent and you're kneel'd down and look silly, then the opponent jumps on top of you. Which, for obvious reasons, doesn't happen on a wrestling mat or in a square ring.
A lot of guys that are known for having good wrestling don't even try to shoot if their opponent's not cut off into the cage. If their opponent's not charging forward, making it easy to just time it out and drop down, ala Georges St-Pierre or Demetrious Johnson, they know how likely it is they'll just sprawl and win some points while they're on top of you and you feel silly for wasting that much energy and having some guy leaning on top of your back, so they don't even try to do it.

Birchak was also a 4-time Greco-Roman state champion in high school, so he was a legit wrassler, and, considering the entire fight took place in that domain and was about Kawajiri's wrestling vs. Birchak's, that's a very relevant point. Birchak also holds a knockout victory over Joe Soto-- who was a Bellator champion and a top-15 featherweight during that time, and had just come off a very competitive title match with TJ Dillashaw and is currently on a three-fight winning streak in the UFC-- and he'd left the UFC off of a win, so he was more than just a middling guy. Considering how much noise-making in the UFC is about shit-talking and being in brain-damage-causing-wars-- which apparently doesn't even factor in that much once you get beneath featherweight, and still doesn't matter that much if the guy does one or both of those things but came from Bellator-- using the amount of noise made in the UFC as a basis for quality is a real silly way to determine a fighter's intrinsic value.
I'm not saying you don't have points about Kawajiri's style working better in the ring vs. cage. That makes perfect sense. These things make a difference including whether you fight in a big octagon or small.

I just don't see the results changing for his bouts I've seen regardless. Opponent quality isn't a vague point. It's the most important aspect of the fight. I still think he loses the Bermudez bout which I was in attendance for if it were in a ring. Still think he beats Birchak in the Octagon.

I didn't mean to insult Birchak btw. But he went 2-2 in the UFC, with one of those wins (the one he went out on) being a split decision. I feel I used the word middling fairly in terms of his UFC career.

You seem like a big Kawajiri fan though so I'm sure your points are valid. I'm sure Kawajiri would look better. Just understand that from a mainly north american fan perspective, it kind of sucks, cause many of us have only seen his career play out through his stay in UFC, then going back, against Gilbert Melendez, Eddie Alvarez, Takanori Gomi, Josh Thomson, and then maybe Shinya Aoki. I wasn't trying to disparage Kawajiri, I was just giving my honest opinion on how I saw the main event as a Rizin first-timer looking to buy the card. It looked like a UFC main card opener to me.

For the better of their business, depending on how important the north american audience is for them, I think they could put together a better headlining act next time. Ultimately I did end up buying the card this time though and did enjoy it, so it's all good.
 
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Looks like all the Japanese who fought against foreigners won aswell on this card. I dont know what Yushin Okami is doing lately but I would love to see him fight in Rizin hahah
 
Reina proved us once again that Japanese fighters are not good with backtaking/RNC which is the most important move in grappling.

People say Sakuraba was one of the best on the mat but I never saw him taking back of his opponent and finishing with a choke. (At the near end of his "career", he indeed won via RNC against a Brazilian Karate guy who didn't have any ground game) . Kikuta won ADCC but I have never seen him finishing a fight with choke.

In 2010, Keita Nakamura made an instructional on RNC, and this is when Shinya Aoki started to use backtaking and RNC, something he never even tried previously.
 
Great fucking production! Enjoyed the fights tremendously even down to the commentary.

Hope to see more fights from Yachi and Tenshin. Reina folding the big German girl like origami was fun. Rena, the ring girls...
 
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Reina proved us once again that Japanese fighters are not good with backtaking/RNC which is the most important move in grappling.

People say Sakuraba was one of the best on the mat but I never saw him taking back of his opponent and finishing with a choke. (At the near end of his "career", he indeed won via RNC against a Brazilian Karate guy who didn't have any ground game) . Kikuta won ADCC but I have never seen him finishing a fight with choke.

In 2010, Keita Nakamura made an instructional on RNC, and this is when Shinya Aoki started to use backtaking and RNC, something he never even tried previously.

You never saw Saku choke out Quintan Jackson?
 
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