RICKSON promoted to RED BELT!

[freaky]

I don't understand when you get to such a high level/rank. It's like it's not even about the knowledge or skills anymore. It's more about time.

Is a 9th degree really that much better or knowledgeable than a 8th degree? Is a red belt really that much better? I mean sure 40 yrs and 45 yrs is a 5 yrs difference. But why some can go from white to blue in a few months while others take 5 years to get that same promotion? Everyone learns differently. I think it's dumb to put a timeline on these promotions. If you're at the level, then you're at the level. Look at BJ Penn who got his Black belt in 3 yrs. If there's any standard, I'm sure he would've reached red belt in less than 40 yrs too. He's a BJJ prodigy and learned super fast.

But unfortunately, everything after black belt, is just time. You could be a black belt for 5 years, not gain any knowledge and still be promoted to 2nd stripe or whatever. There are more innovative, creative, better 1st degree black belts than a higher one. Like Eddie Bravo who created his own system. So cool. I think it's cooler/better to create your own moves/techniques because maybe even a red belt haven't seen it before and will get subbed by it.

Anyways, ranks after the first few degrees is totally pointless. Might as well just say "45 year black belt veteran" instead of a "red belt". Kind of the same meaning.

 

[SBJ]

very informative..

Merit vs Time

Prodigy vs Average

How other Professions graduate people..
(Elementary, Middle School, High School, College, Graduate School, etc.)

​

 

[Habs fan]

Freaky that's the point I believe Rickson was making. We should go by time this way everyone is the same. As soon as you start to say Eddie bravo deserves more degrees on his black belt then the next guy because he is created techniques or because someone is more talented he deserves more degrees before you know it people are getting degrees based on what their instructors think. Problem with that is we can start to see the degrees be different from school to school and instructor from instructor the time line eliminates that. The degrees just mean time in. It has nothing to to with talent or knowledge or anything else.

 

[Rado]

Freaky that's the point I believe Rickson was making. We should go by time this way everyone is the same. As soon as you start to say Eddie bravo deserves more degrees on his black belt then the next guy because he is created techniques or because someone is more talented he deserves more degrees before you know it people are getting degrees based on what their instructors think. Problem with that is we can start to see the degrees be different from school to school and instructor from instructor the time line eliminates that. The degrees just mean time in. It has nothing to to with talent or knowledge or anything else.

You have basically described the whole belt system and what it's based on. It is and always was based on what the instructors think. There is no standard.

 

[Rado]

Debatable

Some areas perhaps. And for some purposes that most people care nothing about, I guess.

Do you think when the Japanese national Judo team goes to Brazil to train Newaza, they do so to debate or because they think most of it is not something they would care about? Seems too long of a trip for that.

Is that also the reason Rickson is so well regarded in Japan? Because they don't see much value on what BJJ is?

 

[nefti]

Actually that's not right. Rickson also helped improving and evolving things. It would be foolish to think the art didn't evolve after 1982. Carlson took over from Helio, Rolls took over from Carlson, Rickson took over from Rolls etc.

Actually the "modern bjj" was mostly evolved through Carlson and rolls.​

 

[Habs fan]

You have basically described the whole belt system and what it's based on. It is and always was based on what the instructors think. There is no standard.

I understand that blue to black belt is based on what the instructors thinks and we have big debates in the commuity sometimes on what is legit or not. Look at sand bagging that happened in the past or Gracie academy giving out online blue belts. I just get the understanding that Rickson is trying to fix this. With the 9 degrees in black belt how do you have standards besides time? What is the standard for a 5th degree compared to a 7th degree? Or should we just leave it up to the senior instructor of that student and just except that one instructors standard for a 5th degree going to be different than another instructor's?

 

[Gabicho]

That's weak.
I got my sambo red belt as soon as i signed up and bought my red kurtka.


/trolling Congratulations to him. If anybody deserves it, it's him. Ironically enough, i remember him saying that red belt was an old man's belt.

 

[andrewm2211]

It's not really just time though. After the first few B.B. Degrees I believe it's based on what you are contributing to BJJ.

I.E creating strong competitors that are moving the art forward etc.
I would think, and I don't know, that a black belt who trains a few times a month here and there, and isn't coaching anyone , would not just eventually age into a coral belt

 

[Fruitsaladsushi]

No, it was rolls and Carlson that evolved jiu jitsu - rickson was the beneficiary of those two pioneers. He was the most gifted Gracie.

Carlson left the family ... It was more Helio, Rolls then Rickson who were the main influences

 

[Rado]

Actually the "modern bjj" was mostly evolved through Carlson and rolls.​

What is modern BJJ to you? To me is Mendes and Keenan type of stuff.

But your assumption that Rickson didn't contribute is wrong. Sorry. Rolls was great and did a lot for the art. He gets this mythical aura because he died early, as happens when you die in your prime. He definitely did a lot for the art. But so did Rickson. Once Rolls died, and since Carlson was already older, Rickson became the person everybody in the family and in Jiu-Jitsu looked up to. He was just 23 years old at the time and there were more experienced family members who could have replaced Rolls. The fact that instead he took the lead in the eyes of the others at that young age and stayed there to this day is already a telling fact that he indeed contributed. To think he just sat on what Rolls did and did nothing else is short sighted or you must dislike Rickson. Because this is just not true.

 

[Rado]

It's not really just time though. After the first few B.B. Degrees I believe it's based on what you are contributing to BJJ.

I.E creating strong competitors that are moving the art forward etc.
I would think, and I don't know, that a black belt who trains a few times a month here and there, and isn't coaching anyone , would not just eventually age into a coral belt

Actually, as far as I know, after black belt it is only based on time served.

 

[Rado]

I understand that blue to black belt is based on what the instructors thinks and we have big debates in the commuity sometimes on what is legit or not. Look at sand bagging that happened in the past or Gracie academy giving out online blue belts. I just get the understanding that Rickson is trying to fix this. With the 9 degrees in black belt how do you have standards besides time? What is the standard for a 5th degree compared to a 7th degree? Or should we just leave it up to the senior instructor of that student and just except that one instructors standard for a 5th degree going to be different than another instructor's?

If speaking only about the black belt degrees, then yes. It's only based on time and that's how it should be IMO.

 

[Rado]

That's weak.
I got my sambo red belt as soon as i signed up and bought my red kurtka.


/trolling Congratulations to him. If anybody deserves it, it's him. Ironically enough, i remember him saying that red belt was an old man's belt.

Actually Rickson said that about the coral belt. Not the red belt. But it's clear he has accepted his aging long ago. He doesn't seem to have a problem with that now.

 

[nefti]

What is modern BJJ to you? To me is Mendes and Keenan type of stuff.

But your assumption that Rickson didn't contribute is wrong. Sorry. Rolls was great and did a lot for the art. He gets this mythical aura because he died early, as happens when you die in your prime. He definitely did a lot for the art. But so did Rickson. Once Rolls died, and since Carlson was already older, Rickson became the person everybody in the family and in Jiu-Jitsu looked up to. He was just 23 years old at the time and there were more experienced family members who could have replaced Rolls. The fact that instead he took the lead in the eyes of the others at that young age and stayed there to this day is already a telling fact that he indeed contributed. To think he just sat on what Rolls did and did nothing else is short sighted or you must dislike Rickson. Because this is just not true.

There is the difference between the jiu jitsu of Helio and the jiu jtisu of rolls/carlson. That was the first great leap in jiu jtisu.

rolls brought athleticism and speed into jiu jitsu/ carlson brought pressure to the game. They both brought agressive offense to jiu jitsu. Please specify what aspect rickson brought to jiu jitsu. He was the product of the family line, he was the most physically gifted, perhaps even the most technical, but he was the beneficiary of carlson and rolls.

 

[barca2012]

Rickson by armbar with red belt !

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Nefti, do you think Rickson saw it that way as well?

I don't think so. He recognizes Rorion as the head of the family and having inherited his father's authority. Rickson actually gave 2 long speeches there. He genuinely didn't want the belt right then, because he didn't want to be an exception to the rules he is trying to get universally enforced, but several of the old school Helio students spoke about how Gracie Jiu-Jitsu only had light blue and dark blue as belts when they were young men, and Royler reminded Rickson that when they were kids they had a yellow belt for 7 years, and now that's different because they changed it and the ranking system evolved, and that it won't be any different with Redbelt because the system will continue to evolve. He can change the standards with more influence now that he is a redbelt.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Actually the "modern bjj" was mostly evolved through Carlson and rolls.​

As far as I can tell, most modern BJJ came from one of two places. Either the more MMA oriented stuff from Carlson, or (and this is the vast majority of sport BJJ) from Rolls's students other than Rickson, primarily Jacare through what became Alliance (and if you look at the technical development of sport BJJ an amazing number of innovators came directly or indirectly from Alliance), and Carlinos through GB. Rickson and the Humaita lineage in general contributed very little technically, probably the main exception to that are the Ribeiro brothers who did as much as anyone to modernize traditional BJJ and keep it working on the modern competition circuit.

 

[cardkid]

Could be..But then the question is, what makes you a red belt then?

You're a red belt when they show up at your gym and put it on you!

 

[Ryo]

As far as I can tell, most modern BJJ came from one of two places. Either the more MMA oriented stuff from Carlson, or (and this is the vast majority of sport BJJ) from Rolls's students other than Rickson, primarily Jacare through what became Alliance (and if you look at the technical development of sport BJJ an amazing number of innovators came directly or indirectly from Alliance), and Carlinos through GB. Rickson and the Humaita lineage in general contributed very little technically, probably the main exception to that are the Ribeiro brothers who did as much as anyone to modernize traditional BJJ and keep it working on the modern competition circuit.

For some reason, nobody on here talks about Oswaldo Alves. He revolutionized the side control position in BJJ. He is the highest ranked instructor in the world now according to BJJ heroes. He has stated many times that the old Gracie JJ was weak in this position and mostly focused on the guard. He brought high level Judo newaza back into JJ which he learned under Isao Okano in Japan. People mostly talk about Rolls in this regard but rarely mention Alves. The fact is Rolls learned from Alves. So, the evolution of techniques and the sport can largely be attributed to Alves and the technical knowledge he brought back with him from Tenri University.