Rickson Gracie vs Rolls Gracie

Hi,

QM is a bit... energetic... in his claims if I may say so :) .
I wouldn't say it is all judo, but, for the times, it looked very judo-esque to me as well more than anything (as I already mentioned before).
I am a little reluctant to post off topic videos for fear of derails here as the OP is a nice historical bjj curio here for everyone to enjoy. But in any case, here's some 'scrambly type judo' where the participants are more evenly matched from close to those times (not exactly though). Its not exactly the same thing obviously but I get the sense this is what you are saying...or maybe not...
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For a judo old timer, that's painful to watch, because its so much better than what judo is now. :icon_cry2

Matches like that were common once. Now the IJF has made them impossible :(
 
For a judo old timer, that's painful to watch, because its so much better than what judo is now. :icon_cry2

Matches like that were common once. Now the IJF has made them impossible :(

Yeah wow. That's was actually fun to watch. Sad they ruined an awesome thing
 
For a judo old timer, that's painful to watch, because its so much better than what judo is now. :icon_cry2

Matches like that were common once. Now the IJF has made them impossible :(



why is it so much better than now tho george? I don't understand why so many think that.
 
why is it so much better than now tho george? I don't understand why so many think that.

two words- fewer rules

edit- leg grab attacks, more newaza time, fewer restrictions on grips, and the referee wasn't an obtrusive part of the match
 
two words- fewer rules

edit- leg grab attacks, more newaza time, fewer restrictions on grips, and the referee wasn't an obtrusive part of the match


- 3 words. Makes no difference.


If you could please just give me one good example of this where it has ever really mattered.

I've eyeballed and I'm all ears. If you need a shift for judo in the direction of bjj or wrestling or anything concept, let me know where.

You'll always, always, need to fight tuff ass elite wrestlers to stop a shot. Period. Allowing leg attacks with pants in judo has never remotely resembled. Its been gross.
 
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- 3 words. Makes no difference. Don't buy that shit. They're cutting the sh*t out.

If you could please just give me one good example of this where it has ever mattered. More newaza time for what? I'll bash his face. Leg grab?only if he's better. Grips? Overated and a thinking mans warm-up.

i can only speak for my own lower level competitions.

i've had a training partner disqualified for the leg grab rule, and i've had an opponent disqualified for grabbing my leg (after my very weak ouchi gari attempt).

newaza time is relative. the referees in my experience tended to only have a basic grasp on newaza. i've benefited from the newaza time limit by holding a higher belt in half guard for 3 seconds before getting stood back up. I've also been stood up while having an opponent in a full cross collar choke from guard (that same opponent would then go to win the match by ippon through pin...while he was in half guard).

referee interference- everyone gets a bad call once in a while, that's the name of the game. but there was that one video posted a week or so ago showing the kids judo match where the referee stopped the match several times to just award shidos and eventually hansoku make a child.

i get that those in the higher levels can adapt to rule changes and restrictions, but this kind of thing stifles growth at the lower levels.
 
i can only speak for my own lower level competitions.

i've had a training partner disqualified for the leg grab rule, and i've had an opponent disqualified for grabbing my leg (after my very weak ouchi gari attempt).

newaza time is relative. the referees in my experience tended to only have a basic grasp on newaza. i've benefited from the newaza time limit by holding a higher belt in half guard for 3 seconds before getting stood back up. I've also been stood up while having an opponent in a full cross collar choke from guard (that same opponent would then go to win the match by ippon through pin...while he was in half guard).

referee interference- everyone gets a bad call once in a while, that's the name of the game. but there was that one video posted a week or so ago showing the kids judo match where the referee stopped the match several times to just award shidos and eventually hansoku make a child.

i get that those in the higher levels can adapt to rule changes and restrictions, but this kind of thing stifles growth at the lower levels.

Why do you hate those rules? Sounds like you could fight fine w/o them. Or with I mean.
 
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Why do you hate those rules? Sounds like you could fight fine w/o them. Or with I mean.

i'm just a fan of having fewer rules in general. judo should still be judo and be defined by the ippon. i just want more avenues to get to that ippon. i dislike rolling ippons, but that's neither here nor there.

removing leg grabbing attacks feels anti-judo. i know it's been said before, but kano himself added the kata guruma. what if his teacher said he can't do it because it's not in the spirit of jujutsu?

i will say that i agreed with removing the koka, but i don't necessarily agree with the reduction in time for osae komi (i'm neutral about it).
 
i'm just a fan of having fewer rules in general. judo should still be judo and be defined by the ippon. i just want more avenues to get to that ippon. i dislike rolling ippons, but that's neither here nor there.

removing leg grabbing attacks feels anti-judo. i know it's been said before, but kano himself added the kata guruma. what if his teacher said he can't do it because it's not in the spirit of jujutsu?

i will say that i agreed with removing the koka, but i don't necessarily agree with the reduction in time for osae komi (i'm neutral about it).

I could name 50 judoka in many mma or grappling matches that were in this 'kataguruma' time zone. I can't name one time where it ever worked for them. Or where they were even in a position to even wanna try.

If you wanna waste your time on it to look cool on noobs, have at.lol

I did see a vid(one of those crazy ones) where a big vet russian wrestler kataguruma'd 3 or 4 teens in a row, about 3 times each.lol. No kidding. It was brutal.lol Streetfight.

If you're working a uranage or kataguruma, you're selling yourself short. Fact.

Rules? in a combat sport? You gotta cope.

p.s. Ironically, I suspect that future fella in judo will actually see less 'rules' than those in the previous less rules years. I think he'll be tuffer too.
 
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I could name 50 judoka in many mma or grappling matches that were in this 'kataguruma' time zone. I can't name one time where it ever worked for them. Or where they were even in a position to wanna try.

If you wanna waste your time on it to look cool on noobs, have at.lol

I did see a vid(one of those crazy ones) where a big vet russian wrestler kataguruma'd 3 or 4 teens in a row, about 3 times each.lol. No kidding. It was brutal.lol Streetfight.

If you're working a uranage or kataguruma, you're selling yourself short. Fact.

Rules? in a combat sport? You gotta cope.

eh. i've had times where kata guruma worked and where i utterly failed at it (both success and failure were using the modified version without the leg grab). i've been trying to work more on my uchimata recently.

edit- i'd rather not go further off topic about it. i understand where you're coming from, but i do disagree with you on certain matters.
 
eh. i've had times where kata guruma worked and where i utterly failed at it (both success and failure were using the modified version without the leg grab). i've been trying to work more on my uchimata recently.

edit- i'd rather not go further off topic about it. i understand where you're coming from, but i do disagree with you on certain matters.

thats fine. Were not even really disagreeing or going off topic imo either, jist shooting it.lol

The good thing WAS that as you hit tuffer comp, your kata-guruma, you only needed to go in half-way. As long as you had a lock on his lapel and pant, you could do a front flip for an ippon.lol. Didnt even have to do a kataguruma to do a kata guruma.lol

But, alas, people want it back.lol Some are seemingly downright ape-shit about it because they still lack realism.imo.

Makes me often wonder if the reason more judoka arent into mma is because they get punched out early.lol
 
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why is it so much better than now tho george? I don't understand why so many think that.

Look at the amount of time given for ne-waza (it was even better back in '81 and the 70's), the reduction in penalties, the allowance for free form (not allowing someone to touch the legs is artificial to begin with, disqualifying someone for it is beyond stupid - hansoke make is for moves which can endanger your opponent, not for a style element ... its judo, not hair dressing), look at the throws (little over rotating, because a gentle roll across the back wasn't enough to get an ippon, and the referee would allow such a roll to continue into ne-waza, meaning if you over rotated you could end up in osae komi).

I won't get into the practical aspects (self-defense etc), partly because I think self-defense is mainly about weapons in any case. But in general, the more rules, the less its going to resemble anything outside judo shiai. In fact, most randori would get you disqualified in shiai. Judo originally had about ten rules, half of which were about the gi. Rules added for safety have always made sense. Rules added to create style invariably is good for referees egos, but takes away fun.

And that's the core of my complaint: it used to be fun to compete because there was much less interference from referees. Now its hard to get kids (or adults or anyone who isn't aiming at high level competition) to compete because they've learned its mainly about not getting penalties rather than having fun trying to come up with some way to throw the other person. And if you do slip up and let yourself be gently rolled, again the match is over. Almost anything counts as an ippon (that's getting a little better, but not much, certainly not compared to the 60's, 70's and 80's). So you don't want to try anything, because a single mistake sends you home. Keith Morgan, one of Canada's Olympians in 2008 talked about that in an interview - the soft ippon makes you cautious because a tiny slip end sends you home. Under the old ippon rules, you could take chances, because if you were countered you were still in the match 95% of the time.

In terms of the leg grabs, many parents don't take their kids to tournaments any more because of them. Eight year olds naturally grab whatever is available, so being DQ'd from a careless leg grab is still common. Spend half a day at a tournament so your eight year old gets 30 seconds of judo before being sent home because he touched a leg? Parents will do that exactly once. I could understand (I don't like it, but can understand) giving a shido for that. But a DQ? Seriously?

Recreational adults tell me they don't bother competing because its just not fun - half the time on the mat is spent adjusting gi's while the referee comes out with some time slowing mate because they spent a second or two on the ground without progress, held some illegal grip, didn't attack right away, did an attack which the referee didn't think was legit. And of course, after four of those you're done, thanks for wasting an afternoon waiting for your matches. They feel there's not much chance to just "grapple", just try things - most things you might want to try now get you a penalty. Its impossible to try to create a certain style without restricting creativity. But that creativity, that free flow, is what makes it fun. Watch a couple of untrained young boys or girls just grapple, they way they automatically do at age six. They're trying a lot of things, and having a great time. The thick judo rule book makes that impossible now.

Competition is as much about gaming the rules now as about throwing someone. That's not really fun for many people. Nor is it particularly fun to watch. The last is of course highly subjective, but I'm one of the large group who think judo shiai, even if you know what is going on, has become mind numbingly boring. Its like TKD, so many artificial rules that more time is spent than anything else.

Basically, judo has become like compulsory figures used to be in figure skating. Definitely takes skill, but its far less creative than it used to be, and far too structured to be fun for most people, either to do or to watch. What was great about that match, which used to be common, was how many different things they tried, how adaptive they were.
 
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^^^

Agreed, essentially on all counts. If you make too many rules, then winning becomes more about being good at manipulating rules than it does about being good at the sport. In Judo, it's the restrictions on gripping and certain attacks. In BJJ, I think the limiting of subs does this to a certain extent (e.g. 50/50 really wouldn't be all that boring, and certainly not a place to stall, if heel hooks were legal). Judo has this in spades, Judo is only fun to watch highlights, most matches these days are way too stop/start, lots of little penalties, etc. to be interesting. I would be very hesitant to compete in Judo under the current rule set. I like BJJ partly because the ref does so little, and once the match starts it essentially doesn't stop.
 
Can anyone post a good example of what judo looks like today? Not an extreme example, haha



There are a number of these ~25 min event recaps on Youtube. They're well produced, and they tend to show a little bit more of matches.
 
Not sure if it's the same video that was in opening post. But damn these guys were beasts.

 
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