Rickson Gracie vs Hayward Nishioka (vintage footage)

[BJJ_Rage]

Very common in judo. For instance, there are many members of the national judo team who will sometimes train with smaller club instructors, and not surprisingly no instructor seems to mind if they get thrown around. I certainly don't, and I've been thrown around by some of the best (including several Olympic and world championship medalists). And those same champions have let me throw them around (trust me, I'm not throwing them if when they're serious), and come up with a smile and typically a "well done", often letting me do it several times with small variations in their defenses. I like to think it was my great skills, though a cynic might say they were trying to teach me to push my boundaries.

I've seen Nick Gill, (Canadian national team judo coach, Olympic bronze and silver medalist at 100 kg) be thrown around in randori by under 15 year olds who weigh maybe 70 kg soaking wet - and these things tend to be filmed by everyone, because how often do you get to work out with a double Olympic medalist/national team coach? I'm guessing Gill was alright with getting his ass handled because it wasn't in competition - he certainly seemed to enjoy it (and the kids love it).

Judo has a very different mindset between what goes on in randori/practice and what happens in Shiai (competition).

Now I don't think a 50 yar old Hayward was going to give a young Rickson a good match even standing under judo rules, let alone on the ground - the age difference was way too much, and Rickson was the best in the world in BJJ, Hayward was never in the top 100 in the world in judo). But I doubt Hayward minded much - its just far too common in judo. In fact I suspect he welcomed it; we certainly welcome it when national team members practice with us, and they obviously can beat us pretty easily. Its just not a big deal.

For that matter, I'm pretty sure that on the ground Rickson would have beat any judo competitor in the US on the ground, and quite possibly the world. Which makes me wonder about the choice of going to a club and challenging a 50 year old who was never a world class competitor ... its like an NBA player going to a local community college and challenging the local basketball team to horse. Seems kind of odd, and I wonder if it was really meant more as a friendly visit (pro's do that with local clubs) than a challenge (pro's challenge pro's, not old timers).

Well the rest of the team didn't seem to have a "let's roll" attitude.

Wouldn't know about judo. But gracies weren't coming from a judo club, and they sure told them who they were (since Hayward telling rickson he needs to train in a proper judo academy)

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Well the rest of the team didn't seem to have a "let's roll" attitude.

Wouldn't know about judo. But gracies weren't coming from a judo club, and they sure told them who they were (since Hayward telling rickson he needs to train in a proper judo academy)

I don't know, I still don't see why Rickson, the number one BJJ competitor in the world, would go to a judo dojo with no world ranked judoka world and issue a challenge. Seriously, America has very few competitors even in the top 100 in the world in judo (and even at that because the Japanese are limited in the number of competitors they can send over - at the time only Jimmy Pedro Jr in Boston was a top level judoka), and the best in that club, Hayward, would actually be lucky to be top 100,000 (and that's being generous). If Rickson was serious he'd have gone to the Kodokan or at least a place with a few Olympic medalists.

And Rickson would rightly be confident of winning against the Kodokan members. So why make a challenge against judo guys who themselves wouldn't last 20 seconds against even the mid-tier Kodokan guys (again no exaggeration, the average Kodokan guy would mop up all but a few American judoka). The choices are pretty simple, either Rickson is an a*hole thinking its cools to pit the top of one style against guys so far down the judo list that no one ever heard of them, or it was a much friendlier visit than people are making it.

Think about it, its like Lebron James going to the local community center and seriously challenging the local basketball team to a game of basketball - who would take it seriously? I'd guess he would have way too much self-respect for that, so I think its more like when Shaq goes out and challenges street kids to play basketball, fun games which are in fact taped and often shown on youtube. If Shaq actually went out hard and then bragged about beating some local community center basketball players he'd be ridiculed, and I don't see Rickson having any less self respect than Shaq.

And yeah, going light in randori is pretty common in judo. Like I said, we have 140 pound 15 year olds who've 'beaten' 220 pound Olympic medalists in randori, repeatedly throwing them. Its possible those Olympians had a bad day, but I'm thinking its more likely they were just having fun.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I don't know, I still don't see why Rickson, the number one BJJ competitor in the world, would go to a judo dojo with no world ranked judoka world and issue a challenge. Seriously, America has very few competitors even in the top 100 in the world in judo (and even at that because the Japanese are limited in the number of competitors they can send over - at the time only Jimmy Pedro Jr in Boston was a top level judoka), and the best in that club, Hayward, would actually be lucky to be top 100,000 (and that's being generous). If Rickson was serious he'd have gone to the Kodokan or at least a place with a few Olympic medalists.

And Rickson would rightly be confident of winning against the Kodokan members. So why make a challenge against judo guys who themselves wouldn't last 20 seconds against even the mid-tier Kodokan guys (again no exaggeration, the average Kodokan guy would mop up all but a few American judoka). The choices are pretty simple, either Rickson is an a*hole thinking its cools to pit the top of one style against guys so far down the judo list that no one ever heard of them, or it was a much friendlier visit than people are making it.

Think about it, its like Lebron James going to the local community center and seriously challenging the local basketball team to a game of basketball - who would take it seriously? I'd guess he would have way too much self-respect for that, so I think its more like when Shaq goes out and challenges street kids to play basketball, fun games which are in fact taped and often shown on youtube. If Shaq actually went out hard and then bragged about beating some local community center basketball players he'd be ridiculed, and I don't see Rickson having any less self respect than Shaq.

And yeah, going light in randori is pretty common in judo. Like I said, we have 140 pound 15 year olds who've 'beaten' 220 pound Olympic medalists in randori, repeatedly throwing them. Its possible those Olympians had a bad day, but I'm thinking its more likely they were just having fun.

Where are you getting this was a challenge, it wasnt, they were there to train, roll whatever... Why rickson didn't go to the kodokan? well quite simple, they were in the us.

 

[Ryo]

Where are you getting this was a challenge, it was, they were there to train, roll whatever... Why rickson didn't go to the kodokan? well quite simple, it's theynwere in the us.

Lol Rickson been to Japan more times than most of us outside of Japan ever will. He's also been to the Kodokan several times. The Gracie's could have went there many times to "learn" from Olympic caliber athletes and have a "training session" whilst filming it....

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Lol Rickson been to Japan more times than most of us outside of Japan ever will. He's also been to the Kodokan several times. The Gracie's could have went there many times to "learn" from Olympic caliber athletes and have a "training session" whilst filming it....

yeah several times, when he was fighting MMA...not before the whole UFC thing.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Where are you getting this was a challenge, it wasnt, they were there to train, roll whatever... Why rickson didn't go to the kodokan? well quite simple, they were in the us.

People in this thread have suggested it was a challenge. My point is that it wasn't, it was just a friendly visit. Which in judo means everyone is going light, and no one cares who wins, because randori isn't shiai (ie randori is where you practice, trying different things, some of which might work, much of which is stuff you're not competent at yet so you try it under circumstances where you expect to fail at it many times until you get it). Shiai is competition mode, where you're out to win. Some club practice is shiai, but 90% of it is randori, and a club visit is almost always randori (and light randori at that) unless its set up as a competition, because its considered unfriendly and creates hard feelings if people go hard in a visit situation.

And my point about the Kodokan was simply that if the Gracies were out to make a challenge, to compete against judo people instead of just having a fun visit, they'd have gone to someplace like the Kodokan. Remember, they were the best BJJ club in the world at the time, if they wanted to test themselves and judo they'd have gone against the best judo club, not a judo club without a single competitor in the top 100,000 of the judo world.

You seem to be agreeing with me that this was just two clubs having fun rather than anyone challenging or testing themselves. And taping visits, taking pictures and the like is actually pretty normal, we do it all the time (much easier now that everyone has a smart phone).