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Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by SBJ, Dec 24, 2011.
Did it seem like a they were there to learn? Or they were there to roll?
Based on what I've seen, it seems the arrangement was they were there to train or "Work" Judo.
I learned BJJ straight from the "Purest" source, LOL, but this is true.
The Gracie Academy, in particular, under Rorion's leadership, is known for doing this.
Do you think an almost 50 year old Hayward was accepting slot of Challenge matches against young prime dudes? And if it were just a an agreed upon challenge match, why would he even bother telling them what they need to work on? Hayward clearly tells Rickson that his newaza is really good but Tachiwaza needs work. How many challenge matches end with the guy trying help the challenger. Dude they were there to train obviously. This was a set up for Gracie profit.
Exactly my point though I'm probably more skeptical about Rickson
I'm not skeptical about his skill (for his era), I'm skeptical about his never-say-die fortitude. One can argue that Royler was the fiercest one, even if he's not the best, he didn't "Fear" anyone. Sperry, Sakuraba...
More likely to crosstrain, other ways why there were many rolls starting on the knees? Why were royler and the other dude going into a normal grappling match? Rickson and the judo instructor though, that was a judo match, or at last it resembled much more to a judo match than a jj one
You don't seem to understand the difference between a challenge match and having people from other academies come train and film the whole thing. It was training, not a dojo storm. Still i don't know a single instructor who's going to be alright just getting his ass handled on camera by a visiting team.
I'm not saying this was fixed......
We seem to have a misunderstanding. I'm saying Hayward thought they were there to train. However, the Gracie's turned it into a match to say they were superior. They knew what they were doing all along. You dont think that is deceitful to profit from deciet? Rickson even smugly boasts that nobody on the Brazilian Judo team can beat him when Hayward tries to give him advice. If you are there simply to learn, why would this happen? I'm not sure what point your trying to make when the obvious is staring everyone in the face. Let's say I'm a top level wrestler and I go to a JJ school as a wrestler and say, hey I want to learn JJ from you. I roll with the instructor but do nothing but play my wrestling game of not getting taken down and learning nothing while trying to make an older instructor look bad...then I post it all over YouTube and claim how great I am.... How would that be perceived?
Different times, this was done by judo guys in BJJ gyms also. Would come to "train " and just try to purposefully slam the shit out of bjj guys. Martial arts were different back then. I'm glad things progressed.
That's the difference though. There was no youtube. No social media. So you had to build up some type of propaghanda base. It was like Americans were being exposed to BJJ tournaments or grappling outside of highschool gyms on a regular basis.
Like BJJ Rage said, you're trying to apply 2017 grappling community standards and etiquette to events that happened 30+ years ago.
Saying the Gracies were guilty of coming up with shady propaganda as if it were uncommon for the day is kind of pointless. Martial arts advertised with promises of super powers to kids in the back of comic books.
Rickson said that he knows he's got to work on his tachi, Hayward told said that he had train wth the Brazilian team and that hes a little better on the ground but not standing, up they are much better, rickson seems not to take This well and he said that no body beats him on the ground on the team in all different weights. How do I know? Because I speak Portuguese... Here is Hayward telling him that the guys on his weight class are just a little worst on the ground, that must have felt like a slap on ricksons face. And to be honest, hardly truth.
What they did with the video latter on could be seen as wrong per say, yet your are making it sound like no one knew they were being taped...
You are assuming a lot of things, how do you know they said they wanted to learn judo? Where are you getting this from?what probably happened is that they said they wanted to train together, big ass difference. Also, if you are a wrestler an go to a jj shcool as to roll with the instructor and all you do is wrestling, is fine, let the instructor know that you are a wrestler and you are taking a cam with you. If the instructor agrees to roll hell probably sit on his ass and it will be a steal mate since you are not going to engage and he's not going to stand up. Even if he does and you wrestle fuck him standing up, posting the vid on YouTube claiming you are the better wrestler is up to you, you probably are. Rorion never claimed the gracies were better at judo than Judokas , actually he admits their tachi isnt on pair. Didn't you get that either? Also, did ricksons match with Hayward looked to you like a jiu jitsu match? That was not a jj match or even close to it.
The obvious is not the obvious, my point is quite clear, No one got played here they were aware they were getting tapped, all of them, they were Doing some Newaza training (see many matches starting on their knees) just as some full on grappling matches (royler) and some judo matches (rickson) rorion never claimed they walked into and judo school and prooved gjj>judo in judo, if so... Please tell me at what part of the vid or where can I find rorion saying that.
I really find it hilarious Gracie defenders are arguing about something old school guys who would have known. told me that they did similar things and honestly on the Gracie spectrum of disingenuous shit.. its not really that bad.
Right your the only dude who knows old school guys..
Did I say that? Or even imply that? Nope. Way to be unnecessarily confrontational and assume. Dear lord
And I got the distinct impression Rickson was offended someone dare give him criticism as much as anything else in the vid
It didnt sound like he was offended, he told him that he trains with the whole brazilian team and ON the ground, hes beats all of them regarding weight, he admited that his tachi needed work. I do think it must have felt like a slap on his face though, probably because he as getting critizicim from someeon he just train with, but it was mostly stand up, just a couple of follow up where he subbed him quite fast. So it couldve been somethng like.. here is this guy telling me Im barely better on the ground than the guys on my weight class, how would he know if we didnt go to the ground much and the times we went, I subbed him quite fast... I could also be the case that they trained more on the ground and rorion just didnt put up that part of th vid.
What do you mean why there were many rolls from the knees? Are you saying they specially started from the knees so they could cross train with GJJ.
Are you that deluded by rorion propaganda that you think this judo club were inviting some Brazilians to cross train?
The judo club I train at has a ratio of 50 % newaza and 50 % tachiwaza.
I prefer doing newaza first because then your body is warmed up which they do on Saturday beginner class.
But I think they mostly start with tachiwaza in the senior class.
They just don't newaza just because I turn up.
Also, I usually avoid newaza in judo because it is my forte. And I forced myself to as much tachiwaza as I can.
No, but I'm neither am clauded by my Gracie dislike. I'm not saying the judo club asked them to teach them some gjj... That would be a disgrace to the judo pride... But they probably just said hey we're the gracies boys would you mind if we train together, well drop off.. Do you really see rorion and rickson going... "Hey bro, we are eager to learn some judo from you guys?can we go to your club to learn? By the way, you wouldn't mind us taking a camera , just to remember the lessons... Really?. Come on man.
I meant cross training by each one being there training, not there as an student. Gjj and judo training=cross training... That's what I meant.
The rolls starting on their knees couldve been by a request of the gracies. Something like.. Hey we're really good on the ground, not so much standing, would you mind some Newaza training? In another footage from the same ocasion there was one black belt who was not happy starting the rolls on the knees...
I don't know your club, but downhere, judo clubs are 80/20 with luck..
Very common in judo. For instance, there are many members of the national judo team who will sometimes train with smaller club instructors, and not surprisingly no instructor seems to mind if they get thrown around. I certainly don't, and I've been thrown around by some of the best (including several Olympic and world championship medalists). And those same champions have let me throw them around (trust me, I'm not throwing them if when they're serious), and come up with a smile and typically a "well done", often letting me do it several times with small variations in their defenses. I like to think it was my great skills, though a cynic might say they were trying to teach me to push my boundaries.
I've seen Nick Gill, (Canadian national team judo coach, Olympic bronze and silver medalist at 100 kg) be thrown around in randori by under 15 year olds who weigh maybe 70 kg soaking wet - and these things tend to be filmed by everyone, because how often do you get to work out with a double Olympic medalist/national team coach? I'm guessing Gill was alright with getting his ass handled because it wasn't in competition - he certainly seemed to enjoy it (and the kids love it).
Judo has a very different mindset between what goes on in randori/practice and what happens in Shiai (competition).
Now I don't think a 50 yar old Hayward was going to give a young Rickson a good match even standing under judo rules, let alone on the ground - the age difference was way too much, and Rickson was the best in the world in BJJ, Hayward was never in the top 100 in the world in judo). But I doubt Hayward minded much - its just far too common in judo. In fact I suspect he welcomed it; we certainly welcome it when national team members practice with us, and they obviously can beat us pretty easily. Its just not a big deal.
For that matter, I'm pretty sure that on the ground Rickson would have beat any judo competitor in the US on the ground, and quite possibly the world. Which makes me wonder about the choice of going to a club and challenging a 50 year old who was never a world class competitor ... its like an NBA player going to a local community college and challenging the local basketball team to horse. Seems kind of odd, and I wonder if it was really meant more as a friendly visit (pro's do that with local clubs) than a challenge (pro's challenge pro's, not old timers).