Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by SBJ, Dec 23, 2011.
The sons of rorion are very similar to their dad in term of approach
It is just not only the Gracie but the sport of Bjj that has the stigma as well.
What was deceitful? Everyone in there knew they were filming it. I don't know, but if I asked some people to an open mat and they bring a camera, I will eithwr ask them to turn it off, or if I actually agree on it, I sure as hell will do my best no to look bad on tape.
It was clear that it wasn't just a friendly roll between classmates. We don't know if they actually ask permission for it, besides rorion wasn't even that disrespectful on the comentary.
Gracies were always not liked much, that's true, they are not church preachers or anything close to it. That doesn't mean they were unethical. rorion is then bullshiter King of kings though... But when people were worshiping Bruce lee chuck Burris Steven seagal and other movie actors, they were actually keeping it real and fighting for real.
I don't believe they deceived anyone in this vid, they went in there and did their thing. Is not like they smuggled an spy cam and filmed the whole thjng without the judo guys knowing..
You can't be serious. You show up at a respected school to learn Judo from a very respected master of the sport. He is older and past his prime. He thinks you are there to learn and you use this footage as a way of saying you are superior to him. In no way did Hayward appear to believe this was a challenge match. Not from the video anyway. This is clear from the fact that he gave them advice and critique at the end. If this was done today by any big name they would be called out and critisized for it. People at my school often film rolls for educational purposes. That doest mean Hayward knew what was going on. It's hard to spin this as anything other than deceitful and underhanded. They profited from a past his prime Judoka who thought they were there to t4ain.
1. you dont know if they just showed up or they actually had a conversation about this before... Where are you getting that hayward thought they were there to learn judo? I tell you where, your ass.
2. Is not the same filming rolls between classmates, if an outside gym comes to mine, bring a camera on and we had members of each team going vs eachother, yeah is not the mundials finals, but it isnt just going to be a roll between classmates, that is for sure.
3. Your talking only about the match with rickson, is not like the tape was just about rickson and the judo instructor, the film is quite long, this is just a part of if, many many matches were on caught on tape.
4.How the fuck was hayward not awre of what was going on? he sure as fuck knew he was getting taped. So I dont know what you mean by him not knowing what was going on... he went in there with a young rickson, you think he wouldve done anything different if he "knew" what was going on?
5. Im not saying it was not part of a gracie propaganda, of course it was, that was their thing, go to other dojos roll/fight whatever with the other ones.
Gracie gonna Gracie. Gracie Apologists will prostalatize and they will close ranks like any self respecting cult. Such is the way of the world
The Gracie's have a history of being misleading to make themselves look good. So it's reasonable to think that it's a good chance that's what happened here
As for Rickson, I'm more and more starting to think he was even more overrated than many think
Jack Slack talked on a podcast that Rickson was still active before his son died when Pride was starting to get monsters but Rickson always refused to to do it
And If he was the consummate "martial artist" people say he was. Constantly refusing and demanding more money to fight doesn't really seem that much in the spirit of that image..
Whatever Royce's issues at least we have film of him putting himself out there win or lose. Rickson, every single thing he's done has legitimate asterisks, whether it's not taking fights he could have lost, constantly demanding perfect rules or more money, setting up a bait and switch to look good on video etc.
Never thought I'd say this but I respect Royce more than Rickson
I think people forget there was a time in American martial arts where people were literally murdered in dojo storms and inter dojo fights.
fucking hilarious to compare 80s MA scene to 2017 grappling scene.
This topic has been done to death.
Rorion takes his boys to a judo class and a video.
His boys only wants to roll according to their sport rules and not judo.
Rorion goes home and edit the video and we got ourselves a dojo storm and the proof the GJJ is better than Judo
I saw a couple o newaza rolls, just as I saw rickson double and single with no follow up...
I saw a couple of hard fought rolls, some ridiculous midget wrestling.
to be fair, most of the matches did not look as judo matches at all, the result was to be expected..
none the less, give me a freaking break, those guys were going 100%, so is not like rorio smuggled a cam, scamed the shit out of them by telling them... hey guys just a friendly roll, got back, edited the whole thing, whala gjj rules... that is what some people seems to be implying, it wasnt like that ...at all.
I'm pretty sure Count Dante was an outlier rather than the norm.
Edit: Sorry, the middle of that sentence got deleted somehow before. At least now it's not gibberish.
Like I said, this topic been done to death. Roberto pedreira wrote a long article about it in global training report.
On the full video, you can see the judokas calling mate when they stand inside the close guard. The Gracie's refusing to acknowledge the judo rules etc....
Most of the Gracie's refusing to do any tachiwaza but then demanding to only do newaza according to their rules. .
Some matches yes, some were starting on their knees.. I didn't see rickson going under jj rules.
Let's be clear here, gracies never said they were the best judo guys in the world, they said they were the best sub grapplers fighters, and jj rules are way closer to that than ijf rules...
Roberto is a Gracie hater, and some of the stuff he wrote isn't on point either, I'm talking about the ll article he wrote not long ago, o would like him to have a good discussion with some of the ll guys I've known, those guys don't take history lightly.
Do you have the link of that article?
Because I usually find his write up interesting.
Well more interesting that the usual Gracie propaganda.
Like there was no internet. No UFC to make the average couch potato want to get up and go join a gym. It was basically you either won tournaments that were visible to the average person (which only point karate was well known at the time in america) or you beat the shit out of people so word would spread so people would want to join your gym.
Awesome that some other guys around here know of this legendary nutcase.
He was reputed to walk a pet lion on a leash around the streets of Chicago back before that was illegal.
They got the invite for a training.
From my understanding. In judo if 2 clubs decides to do an inter club compete. You bring your best 10 and that is it!!!.
The fact that rorion can twist it a dojo storm is amazing.
It was posted in f12 was about catch and its relation to luta Livre.
If you come to me to learn, I will relax my defenses and allow situations to arise organically.
If you come to prove your manhood, tell me first, and every position will be fought for. As for dominating on the ground, that is expected. It's the exact level of dominance if the judo guy was equal in size and age and only insisted on throwing techniques.
Typical Gracie insincerity.
Rickson is masterful, but Royce literally put himself in a position to lose against good competition and actually took his losses like a man.
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