Rickson Gracie Article by Maynard Keenan

Joey Burke said:
There is something very funky about Keenan's purple belt.. he's not listed anywhere as ever attaining a belt from Rickson (that I have seen) and he said years later that he dropped BJJ because he was tired of being crushed by larger guys at the gym and it wasn't fair for him to have to roll with guys that large.

How does a purple belt that weighs ~140 say that he's too small to enjoy BJJ? Especially one who is familiar with the Gracie family. Either he has no heart or got private lessons for years and realized his belt was bought at some point shortly after rolling with the general public.
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I've heard he suffered a *bad* back injury, and was finding it hard to train because people would just keep trying to smash him despite his size and injury issues.

I can understand that --- fortunately I'm not myself particularly small, but so many people roll like they're trying to kill you, even when they're rolling against somebody 50 pounds lighter and much older. That kind of thing is just a recipe for constant chronic injury and no fun.
 
Darph said:
The Gracies were taught by Kosen Judo practitioner Maeda. Kosen Judo is a ground oriented Judo style taught in Japanese highschools and colleges.
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Kosen judo didn't even existed when Maeda left Japan, idiot.
 
keenan is the man. Kosen judo was around when madea was in brazil
 
Darph said:
Anyways, I do beleive that the Gracies got VERY good at Ne-Waza, but let's face it: Kimura beat Helio. Yoshida beat Royce.
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Whats your point? Who won those fights has FAR more to do with the individual fighter than it does what style(s) they use....:icon_conf
 
Darph said:
The Gracies were taught by Kosen Judo practitioner Maeda. Kosen Judo is a ground oriented Judo style taught in Japanese highschools and colleges.

Anyways, I do beleive that the Gracies got VERY good at Ne-Waza, but let's face it: Kimura beat Helio. Yoshida beat Royce.

The major step for BJJ was simply creating a contest that focused on the ground game (Thank Carlos jr.)
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How much bigger than Helio was Kimura?

How much bigger than Royce was Yoshida? And Royce, despite early UFC fame, has never been a top BJJ practitioner. Put Yoshida versus Arona, Roger, Jacare, hell even Marcelo and the outcome would've been quite different IMO.
 
regardless what would've happend 350 lbs fist yoshida won and kimura won.
 
A 75 year old man in my academy here in Rio saw Helio vs. Kimura live in maracananzinho.. pretty intresting although kinda off topic =) He said kimura gave him a schooling
 
Hammer Time said:
regardless what would've happend 350 lbs fist yoshida won and kimura won.
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So let's hypothetically say, CC fought, let's say Sakuraba with only a slight 20-30 lbs weight advantage, would you say kickboxing is better than Saku's catch based on the result?

Or let's say an Olympic level boxer with only 10-15 lbs weight advantage took on a local kickboxing champ and won, would you say boxing is better than kickboxing based on the result?

Helio and Royce's fights with Kimura and Yoshida respectively have no meaning for the arts in question, only the fighters in question.
If the smaller and less competition tried Helio and Royce had prevailed then it would be a matter of an art being superior.
If the big man with more fight experience wins, well, that's hardly a surprise is it?
 
The judoka in this thread make me want to quit judo. Fortunately I know respectful judoka.

Look it isn't the technique which is important. I could have the best osoto gari uchikomi in the world, but if I don't know good setups, then it is worthless. Judo has evolved a lot since the 20s, and so has BJJ. But the judoka on this thread seem to ignore that.

Here's the impression you give: You can't fathom that BJJ has anything which judo does not. Old videos of one practitioner doing something which the majority of judoka don't do is not evidence that judo had it all and that Helio stole it all from them. Maybe he independently came up with them? Of course, you don't respect that. If Helio was Japanese, I doubt your opinions would be the same.

You are too much on judo's nuts. For crying out loud, I never see "how do I do this throw" or "how do I do that pin" stuff from you guys. It is all "cool judo highlight" or "judo > all" stuff. I get you love judo.

Frankly I'm tired of all the "We invented everything in BJJ" from you guys (and that goes for some of you catch guys too). Kano himself would not have approved of your attitudes.
 
Frodo said:
The judoka in this thread make me want to quit judo. Fortunately I know respectful judoka.

Look it isn't the technique which is important. I could have the best osoto gari uchikomi in the world, but if I don't know good setups, then it is worthless. Judo has evolved a lot since the 20s, and so has BJJ. But the judoka on this thread seem to ignore that.

Here's the impression you give: You can't fathom that BJJ has anything which judo does not. Old videos of one practitioner doing something which the majority of judoka don't do is not evidence that judo had it all and that Helio stole it all from them. Maybe he independently came up with them? Of course, you don't respect that. If Helio was Japanese, I doubt your opinions would be the same.

You are too much on judo's nuts. For crying out loud, I never see "how do I do this throw" or "how do I do that pin" stuff from you guys. It is all "cool judo highlight" or "judo > all" stuff. I get you love judo.

Frankly I'm tired of all the "We invented everything in BJJ" from you guys (and that goes for some of you catch guys too). Kano himself would not have approved of your attitudes.
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Well said.
 
350 lbs fist said:
How much bigger than Helio was Kimura?

How much bigger than Royce was Yoshida? And Royce, despite early UFC fame, has never been a top BJJ practitioner. Put Yoshida versus Arona, Roger, Jacare, hell even Marcelo and the outcome would've been quite different IMO.
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There is a lot of mith about how big was kimura and how small was helio.

Taking from the photo and video helio was quite taller than kimura.

From kimura biography

"Helio was 180cm and 80kg. "

Kimura was 169 cm and weight in his entire career between 81 and 86 kilos.

He stated himself that "Neither my height (169cm) nor weight (86kg) is outstanding.", that's while he was doing pro-judo, and is the same period of helio's fight

Kimura bio http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm

If you read Helio biography it's like he was 140 lbs while Kimura was a giant of 100+ kg.

That's not true , but it's true that kimura was very very strong and trained.

But as latin stated IN MEDIO STAT VIRTUS, the right position is in the middle


Other than that it's true that Kosen judo didn't exist while maeda was in Japan, but newaza did, and Maeda was a judoka. All his previous training was tenshin shinnyo ryu as a child under Jigoro Kano (before he developed judo).

Kosen judo is a ruleset for school, and some of the technique developed for that competition, like Sankaku jime (triangle choke) were developed after Maeda left japan (Sankaku was developed by tsunetane Oda).

Maeda was a student of Tomita and other judoka that, after maeda left japan, became some of the developers of Kosen rules set.
 
Maynard Keenan eventually stops asking questions and throws in his own comments one-too-many, as if the reader cares. Maybe he should interview himself one day.
 
chokingvictim said:
This is a misconception I had about the Gracie family as well. I was under the impression they invented all the submissions on the ground until I learned that all the moves (for the most part) were in judo but were banned a long time ago from competition/olympic judo.

I still have a lot of respect for them and how they've brought their style to the US. I now have a Royler academy 5 minutes from my house and if it weren't for Royce fighting in the early UFC, there would probably be nothing but karate and kung fu and tkd schools in NE Ohio.
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Do you train in Mentor or Eastlake?
 
Zankou said:
I've heard he suffered a *bad* back injury, and was finding it hard to train because people would just keep trying to smash him despite his size and injury issues.

I can understand that --- fortunately I'm not myself particularly small, but so many people roll like they're trying to kill you, even when they're rolling against somebody 50 pounds lighter and much older. That kind of thing is just a recipe for constant chronic injury and no fun.
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He should've stopped rolling with assholes and whitebelts instead of quiting BJJ altogether. Too bad.
 
Thalion said:
There is a lot of mith about how big was kimura and how small was helio.

Taking from the photo and video helio was quite taller than kimura.

From kimura biography

"Helio was 180cm and 80kg. "

Kimura was 169 cm and weight in his entire career between 81 and 86 kilos.

He stated himself that "Neither my height (169cm) nor weight (86kg) is outstanding.", that's while he was doing pro-judo, and is the same period of helio's fight
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Helio was 80 kilos? He's always looked pretty skinny to me, even in his prime? 180 cm's and 80 kilos while skinny sounds alot. I have pretty buff guys at my gym who are 5 cm's taller and around 80 kilos. I can't source that for Helio but I hope someone can?

Royce/Yoshida is pretty clear though.
 
i dont think helio was ever 80kg. i remember somewhere he was 130lbs sopping wet
 
I don't really know. Both side told a different version

Noone in the kimura side never talk about the "if i didn't submitt you in 13 minutes you are the winner" , opposite to that George Mehdi told that the fight was a work for the first 10 minutes to avoid the crowd go mad with a quick loose.

The longest video of the fight is this 3 minutes vid http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2wO3dHUYwQ


This is the video of the 2nd Kato vs Helio fight , Kato too was told to be "huge" but he is far smaller than helio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMAu0A-vQm8

Nishi: Then, did you fight with a Japanese Judo-ka before the fight with Kimura?

Helio: Yes, I did. He had 20 kg. heavier than me and was strongly built. But I was able to win by good luck.

I don't think kato is heavier than helio at all from the video


I mean, in Brazil there was a little marketing even on their loss. Look at the newspaper page after Kimura broke the helio's arm.

A huge title " WIN FOR HELIO GRACIE" and a little text ( Morally)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/Masahiko_Kimura_vs_Helio_Gracie_ude-garami.jpg
 
Damn that kimura is DEEP! At first glance it looks like the americana!
 
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