renzo over under counter
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Panza used a modification of this (slightly different grips/positioning but similar tilt sweep) to shut down Faria in the open class at Worlds last year. Faria didn't seem to be able to make an adjustment to answer it. It's a big part of my game and now omne of my much smaller training partners is fending it off by transitioning from lasso straight to a loop choke and it is wrecking me.
????
The top guy can minimize the threat of this counter by adjusting his underhook grip on the leg.
Try underhooking so that your fingers go inside the back of his pants waistband directly above his butt. This is opposed to underhooking with your fingers on the side by his hip or in front above his thigh.
The idea is that your forearm will make a straight line directly up and down over his butt cheek. It goes right down the middle of the far butt cheek.
It's a small adjustment, but it makes it quite a bit harder for the bottom guy to unbalance you using your underhook arm for leverage.
I learned this tip from legendary Sherdog poster Frodo actually. He was great at this pass and used it successfully in a lot of tough matches, but he messed up his shoulder really bad some years ago. He couldn't take the pressure on his shoulder from guys trying this counter, so he came up with the idea to adjust the grip on the pants to eliminate it altogether.
He found it highly effective and now teaches it to everyone.
Try underhooking so that your fingers go inside the back of his pants waistband directly above his butt. This is opposed to underhooking with your fingers on the side by his hip or in front above his thigh.
The idea is that your forearm will make a straight line directly up and down over his butt cheek. It goes right down the middle of the far butt cheek.
It's a small adjustment, but it makes it quite a bit harder for the bottom guy to unbalance you using your underhook arm for leverage.
I learned this tip from legendary Sherdog poster Frodo actually. He was great at this pass and used it successfully in a lot of tough matches, but he messed up his shoulder really bad some years ago. He couldn't take the pressure on his shoulder from guys trying this counter, so he came up with the idea to adjust the grip on the pants to eliminate it altogether.
He found it highly effective and now teaches it to everyone.
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Does it work no gi?
Is it even an underhook if you're grabbing behind the pants? Without pressure from that underhook, Are you allowing the opponent to sit up and basically try all of the belt grabbing counters?
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Kenny, what's your favoriteresponse on top when they try to sit into you and use your force back to basically tomoe nagae you? Basically what Panza is trying here
The way Faria is gripping around the butt at about 1:36 in that video you posted is exactly what I meant. I would still consider that grip an underhook.
It works no gi too; you just can't put your fingers inside the shorts waistband to stabilize it (unless the ref isn't looking). Just cup around his butt with your palm instead.
It weakens the grip somewhat, but the bottom guy also can't control your arm nearly as well without the friction of the gi either so it evens out.
As far as the sit up counter that is being used in that video, you can keep pressure with your overhook side shoulder into the bottom guy's solar plexus. That should prevent him from being able to sit up. Obviously that isn't happening in that video, but Panza probably did a pretty good job of not allowing Faria to get into position to apply that pressure.
A friend of mine went to a seminar with Faria on this pass, and he specifically stressed to keep a strong pressure into the solar plexus with the overhook side shoulder. That was one of his keys to making the pass work.
I think the over/under pass is a very solid, high level move. Properly done, I think it will work on nearly anyone. The tricky part of course is "properly done" because at a high level your opponent tends to be a master at not letting you properly do anything. I'm almost positive Faria knew what he had to do there to make it work, but knowing what to do vs actually being able to do (especially against a guy like Panza) are two very different things.
It works no gi too; you just can't put your fingers inside the shorts waistband to stabilize it (unless the ref isn't looking). Just cup around his butt with your palm instead.
It weakens the grip somewhat, but the bottom guy also can't control your arm nearly as well without the friction of the gi either so it evens out.
As far as the sit up counter that is being used in that video, you can keep pressure with your overhook side shoulder into the bottom guy's solar plexus. That should prevent him from being able to sit up. Obviously that isn't happening in that video, but Panza probably did a pretty good job of not allowing Faria to get into position to apply that pressure.
A friend of mine went to a seminar with Faria on this pass, and he specifically stressed to keep a strong pressure into the solar plexus with the overhook side shoulder. That was one of his keys to making the pass work.
I think the over/under pass is a very solid, high level move. Properly done, I think it will work on nearly anyone. The tricky part of course is "properly done" because at a high level your opponent tends to be a master at not letting you properly do anything. I'm almost positive Faria knew what he had to do there to make it work, but knowing what to do vs actually being able to do (especially against a guy like Panza) are two very different things.
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its a move that stops working at black belt when you get below 167 weight class i feel not saying it cant be done but guys hips are just too damn good like guys never hit single legs at 135 n under hell i dont even rememebr last single i saw at 155 even certain moves work better at certain weights
I agree that most moves have a weight class sweet spot range.
I still consider the moves fundamentally effective though. Most ultra heavyweights think of triangles from the guard as ineffective techniques. They usually are ineffective in that weight class. But it's still a core attack at all levels across a long period of time for most other weight classes. So it sticks around.
I still consider the moves fundamentally effective though. Most ultra heavyweights think of triangles from the guard as ineffective techniques. They usually are ineffective in that weight class. But it's still a core attack at all levels across a long period of time for most other weight classes. So it sticks around.
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Thanks for the insights!
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Depends on how they are doing it. Can you give me a timecode to look at?
At 2:17 Bernardo gets tipped over, and then overcommitted to the takedown so Panza couldn't stand, but he had weird grips so when Panza re-sat, he was far enough under him to float.
When I feel people trying tomonagi, I try to let them initiate and ride/float over into a folding pass, and will pin the knee and take the collar to keep their body pinned and twisted.
Most of the time though, as soon as they sit up, I look to secure an inside knee grip and a horse collar, so I can flop pass or step over and around their guard.
My coach uses the sit up to bait you pushing into him and move towards his back, and in the transition, he will stand and throw you with harai. He did this in the match at Houston Open that was kind of viral because he didn't get back points for having his feet crossed, I think it is on YouTube.
At 2:17 Bernardo gets tipped over, and then overcommitted to the takedown so Panza couldn't stand, but he had weird grips so when Panza re-sat, he was far enough under him to float.
When I feel people trying tomonagi, I try to let them initiate and ride/float over into a folding pass, and will pin the knee and take the collar to keep their body pinned and twisted.
Most of the time though, as soon as they sit up, I look to secure an inside knee grip and a horse collar, so I can flop pass or step over and around their guard.
My coach uses the sit up to bait you pushing into him and move towards his back, and in the transition, he will stand and throw you with harai. He did this in the match at Houston Open that was kind of viral because he didn't get back points for having his feet crossed, I think it is on YouTube.
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Basically starts around 1:20 of tat video. Panza sits up, trying to pressure into Faria is to get pressure back so as to roll him. I think.
Balto suggested to get the pressure into the solar plexus (which does not happen in this video). So you basically give up the over under pass in favor of changing grips and going for the backstep or long step pass? Or am I reading that wrong
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If they are trying to sit up and frame on me, I'll usually adjust by chasing the back. If they are sitting up to try and load me up for a sweep, I'll usually offset my weight and widen my base, or if it is too late, float towards a folding pass. That's an old video, and I'd bet a lot of money that Bernardo would tell you the adjustment he makes nowadays is moving his shoulder up higher for more pressure, which is how I've been taught Bernardo's over under by his former students. Everything is dependent on the bottom guy's response that he feeds you.
