Removing Stop and Frisk Increased Homicide in Chicago

I don't support stop and frisk and I don't support more gun control.

But if it's about stopping the violence and saving the kids as the left wants then things like stop and frisk are going to do more then anything.

But it's not really about the crime it's about people having rights others don't think they should have.

Again, you're speaking in absolutes. Yes, both are infringement per se and target behavior, but the hypocrisy you speak of only makes sense if persons critical of stop and frisk are supportive of proportionately intrusive gun-related measures.
 
Again, you're speaking in absolutes. Yes, both are infringement per se and target behavior, but the hypocrisy you speak of only makes sense if persons critical of stop and frisk are supportive of proportionately intrusive gun-related measures.

Universal background checks are intrusive .
 
Anyone who bitches about gun rights but want LEO's to arbitrarily pat down and grope your junk based on hunches is an ignorant piece of shit. This is such a clear and flagrant infringement on personal rights and space. Saying you can't buy some obscure add-on that makes you able to shoot 2 rounds a second instead of 1 is tyranny, but having some mustached cowboy finger you through your pants is just law and order.

The hypocrisy of people amazes me.

Why the cop has to be a cowboy/white?

Plenty of hipster would line up for free fingering action.
 
Why the cop has to be a cowboy/white?

Plenty of hipster would line up for free fingering action.

I didn't mention race, but you're right.

Universal background checks are intrusive .

Agreed. Do you think that, because it's intrusive, it's thereby just as intrusive as warrantless confiscation of all your arms?
 
I didn't mention race, but you're right.



Agreed. Do you think that, because it's intrusive, it's thereby just as intrusive as warrantless confiscation of all your arms?

No but it's about the same as stop and frisk.
 
It's always easer to take rights from others when It us little effect on you.

Laws are universal. What you're saying makes zero sense. I think you're getting your gun control paranoia mixed up with your socialist "tax the other guy" paranoia.
 
Anyone who bitches about gun rights but want LEO's to arbitrarily pat down and grope your junk based on hunches is an ignorant piece of shit. This is such a clear and flagrant infringement on personal rights and space. Saying you can't buy some obscure add-on that makes you able to shoot 2 rounds a second instead of 1 is tyranny, but having some mustached cowboy finger you through your pants is just law and order.

The hypocrisy of people amazes me.

I didn't say I agreed with this. I am trying to have an argument that boils down to do is it worth it to have a police state in exchange for safety. My personal view is no we do not want that. I am happy risking injury or death and be able to live what time I have on this earth freely.
 
I didn't say I agreed with this. I am trying to have an argument that boils down to do is it worth it to have a police state in exchange for safety. My personal view is no we do not want that. I am happy risking injury or death and be able to live what time I have on this earth freely.

Yeah, I didn't realize how that post seemed to be critical of you and not society in general.
 
Laws are universal. What you're saying makes zero sense. I think you're getting your gun control paranoia mixed up with your socialist "tax the other guy" paranoia.

But some people care about some rights much more then others.
 
The "tough on crime" approach also increased the number of homicides in Chicago, are you advocating less police presence and more leeway for potential criminals? Chicago is the way it is partly because the cops took a RICO approach to things and fucked it up.
Overall crime is down since they RICO’d gangs and tore down the housing projects

Crime rose in recent years but it’s nothing compared to what it used to be and Chicago has significantly fewer detectives than they used it have and has been very weak on crime actually when it comes to sentencing felons with firearms. Chicago solves their homicides at lower rates compared to other cities in part because of the no snitching policy.

The idea that breaking up gangs caused fracturing and new gang rivalries sounds plausible but I don’t believe that’s the main reason, maybe it’s a contributing factor.
 
You know what will reduce crime? Living in locked cages....that doesn't make it right.
 
My best friend in HS was black(I'm a honkey). We rode around and got fucked with all the time. We were also smoking weed and drinking all the time. Never arrested but we both had to ditch weed from time to time. Got lucky I suppose. We use to get tall-boys in the summer and roll around chilling.

Same here. Good times. Small town
 
You know what will reduce crime? Living in locked cages....that doesn't make it right.

Not for those that are locked up. Ever been to county for a week or two?

Kevin-Malone-Laugh.gif
 
Meh, when I was a kid I wore my hair long, dressed grungy, I got shit from cops all the time. Never beaten or anything because I didn't throw a tantrum but I just looked like a kid who probably had weed on him somewhere.

If you want to look like a thug or a drug addict, then expect people to treat you like one.

The issue is that the approach you are describing leaves it up to the subjective prejudices of the police to decide who "looks like a thug or drug addict" and there is no way to regulate that.

You could decide that anybody wearing red clothes looks suspicious, or anybody who wears a hat, or anybody who is of a certain ethnicity, etc. Basically it gives police the ability to use their personal prejudices as a baseline to enforce the law.

Not to start a new debate all over again, but think about the reason that George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin. Trayvon Martin was wearing a perfectly respectable outfit that night, just normal jeans and a hooded sweatshirt. Basically the outfit my mom wears when she walks her dog. But Zimmerman followed him, and called the police on him, based on some prejudice that he had regarding that.
 
The risk that people will misuse their free will is a part and parcel of having freedom.

State authorities stopping people and searching them for contraband, without legitimate cause, is not.

The preservation of freedom requires that the bar for what constitutes "legitimate cause" remain set pretty damn high.

"Stop and frisk" is a dodgy idea.
 
You just can't do it. It's humiliating, degrading, etc. Stop and frisk would make me hate the world and plan a Terminator style police station smackdown.
 
Overall crime is down since they RICO’d gangs and tore down the housing projects

Crime rose in recent years but it’s nothing compared to what it used to be and Chicago has significantly fewer detectives than they used it have and has been very weak on crime actually when it comes to sentencing felons with firearms. Chicago solves their homicides at lower rates compared to other cities in part because of the no snitching policy.

The idea that breaking up gangs caused fracturing and new gang rivalries sounds plausible but I don’t believe that’s the main reason, maybe it’s a contributing factor.

I've posted in depth on the subject before. It's a whole lot more than a "contributing factor", it fundamentally changed the nature of gang crime in Chicago.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-shootings-violence-2016-met-20160630-story.html

The makeup of Chicago's gangs has changed dramatically over the years. They once were massive organizations with powerful leaders and hundreds of members who controlled large chunks of territory. Now small cliques battle for control over a few blocks.

Veteran officers say the fractured nature of gangs has made life more chaotic on the street, with rivals sometimes living just a few blocks apart.

Hatch thinks much of the violence involves retaliatory shootings stemming from so many homicides going unsolved, while police complain of too few witnesses willing to cooperate.

"That means you've got a lot of vigilantism going on out there," he said. "They think they have to get (justice) on their own."

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/18/us/chicago-murder-problem.html

In Chicago, gang disputes are clearly a big part of homicides, said John Hagedorn, a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago who studies Chicago gangs. “But these are not the same kind of disputes as before – they’re more localized disputes.”

Many of Chicago’s gangs have fractured, leading to more violence, said Arthur Lurigio, a criminology professor at Loyola University Chicago. While Latino gangs have remained more hierarchical, black gangs have splintered into small, disparate factions, whose disputes are less over territory and profits, and more over personal insults or shames, often fueled by social media, he said.

“Young people are making a lot of indirect threats toward cliques and rival gangs that are being interpreted as being threatening,” said Desmond Patton, a professor at Columbia University who has studied violence on social media. “Tagging is the conversation starter that could lead to someone getting a gun.”

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-violence-gangs-20160728-story.html

Street gangs, once compared with Fortune 500 companies for their organizational skills and ruthless pursuit of profits, are now mostly made up of small, leaderless sets of members bound together by personal relationships rather than geographic or narcotics-trade ties. Personal insults and petty conflicts, often inflamed by social media posts, are just as likely to lead to a shooting as is competition for drug turf. Taken together, these changes have created an anything-goes atmosphere on the streets.

The causes of violence in Chicago are complex and defy simple explanation. But police and other experts identify the fracturing of Chicago's gangs as one apparent contributor to a surge in violence that includes more than 2,300 people shot so far this year.

It is no secret that the nature of Chicago's street gangs has changed, resulting in less centralized and less hierarchical organizations. Chicago's top police officials have spoken frequently about how the splintering of the city's gangs has fueled the city's nonstop violence. Stature of the kind that Webster once enjoyed now means nothing, and gang members on the street have no bosses giving orders. The violent results have become increasingly unpredictable.

As the gang affiliations and conflicts have become more chaotic, the criminal justice system has become less effective in dealing with the violence, according to interviews with five investigators who together have decades of experience in local and federal law enforcement agencies dealing with gangs. All spoke on the condition that they remain anonymous, either because of security concerns or because they were not authorized by their agencies to speak publicly.
 
Whatever we allow the police do to "bad people" will filter down to the rest of us, sooner or later(already happening).
 
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