Removing Stop and Frisk Increased Homicide in Chicago

Lord Coke

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So this paper brings up a interesting dilemma and this thread somewhat mirror my last thread about gun deaths. Here there is pretty good evidence that arguably unconstitutional stop and frisk police tactics do decrease murder rates. The question presented is how much of a reduction in homicide is enough to justify obtrusive policing of this nature? Secondly. do you believe the ACLU did a good or bad thing in bringing their lawsuit in terms of societal benefit?


link to paper
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3145287
link to article
http://reason.com/volokh/2018/03/26/the-2016-chicago-homicide-spike-explaine


As the Chicago Tribune reported this morning, University of Utah Economics Professor Richard Fowles and I have just completed an important article on the 2016 Chicago homicide spike. Through multiple regression analysis and other tools, we conclude that an ACLU consent decree trigged a sharp reduction in stop and frisks by the Chicago Police Department, which in turn caused homicides to spike. Sadly, what Chicago police officers dubbed the "ACLU effect" was real—and more homicides and shootings were the consequence.

The analysis is relatively straightforward. It is well known that homicides increased dramatically in Chicago in 2016. In 2015, 480 Chicago residents were killed. The next year, 754 were killed—274 more homicide victims, tragically producing an extraordinary 58% increase in a single year. What happened?

Many commentators have observed this startling year-to-year change in homicides. However, a surprising lack of empirical effort has been devoted to exploring the causal factor or factors. This issue is, to put it bluntly, of life or death importance. Against a frightening backdrop of an annual baseline of about 500 homicides in Chicago each year, something in 2016 led to the death of more than 250 additional victims in a single year.

In our paper, Professor Fowles and I bring empirical research tools to bear in an attempt to identify what changed in Chicago during that time. While such analysis may be unable to provide absolutely definitive answers, it can suggest which factors are more likely than others to have been responsible. Given that, quite literally, more than two hundred additional victims died in 2016 in some of Chicago's most impoverished neighborhoods—and more might similarly be killed in the future in Chicago and elsewhere—finding answers must be regarded as a high priority.

Our article proceeds in several steps. It begins by describing in general terms what is quite accurately called a "spike" in homicides in Chicago in 2016. A 58% year-to-year change in America's "Second City" is staggering, suggesting something changed dramatically to initiate the increase.

We next attempt to pinpoint the time when things changed in Chicago—what might be called the "inflection" or "break" point in the data series. We begin by seasonally adjusting Chicago homicide and shooting data, which show significant seasonal fluctuation from cold weather months to warm weather months. Once the data are seasonally adjusted, a change or "break" in the data series can be statistically detected around November 2015.

We next explore the possibility that, as been suggested by a number of observers, a reduction in stop and frisks by the Chicago Police Department that began at the very end of 2015 was responsible for the homicide spike starting immediately thereafter. Good reasons exist for believing that the decline in stop and frisks caused the spike. Simple visual observation of the data suggests a cause-and-effect change. In the chart below, we depict the (seasonally unadjusted) monthly number of stop and frisks (in blue) and the monthly number of homicides (in gold). The vertical line is placed at November 2015—the break point in the homicide data. This is precisely when stop and frisks declined in Chicago.

Chart-two-fact.jpg


Detailed regression analysis of the homicide (and related shooting) data strongly supports what visual observation suggests. Using monthly data from 2012 through 2016, we are able to control for such factors as temperature, homicides in other parts of Illinois, 9-1-1 calls (as a measure of police-citizen cooperation), and arrests for various types of crimes. Even controlling for these factors, our equations indicate that the steep decline in stop and frisks was strongly linked, at high levels of statistical significance, to the sharp increase in homicides (and other shooting crimes) in 2016.

We also explain why the possibly contrary experience with reductions in stop and frisks in New York City may be exceptional and inapplicable to Chicago and other cities. New York has comparatively low levels of gun violence—and stop and frisk tactics may be particularlyl important for deterring gun crimes.

We then qualitatively search for other possible factors that might be responsible for the Chicago homicide spike. For various reasons, none of these other candidates fit the data as well as the decline in stop and frisks. In addition, Bayesian Model Averaging ("BMA") provide strong statistical evidence that our findings are robust in the sense that they are not due to inclusion or exclusion of any particular variables in our equations.

Our equations permit us to quantify the costs of the decline in stop and frisks, both in human and financial terms. We conclude that, because of fewer stop and frisks in 2016, a conservative estimate is that approximately 236 additional homicides and 1115 additional shootings occurred during that year. A reasonable estimate of the social costs associated with these additional homicides and shootings is about $1,500,000,000. And these costs are heavily concentrated in Chicago's African-American and Hispanic communities.

In our penultimate section, we explain why the ACLU settlement agreement with the Chicago Police Department is the most likely cause of the decline in stop and frisks. Indeed, the ACLU took credit for the decline in stop and frisks at the start of 2016.

We conclude by offering some tentative suggestions for how policy-makers might reassess the importance and benefits of stop and frisk practices on the streets of Chicago and other cities. We also situate our findings within a larger body of developing empirical literature supporting the conclusion that restrictions on law enforcement investigations has real-world consequences by reducing police effectiveness. Sadly, Chicago's 2016 homicide spike may be a reflection of the tragic consequences that follow when that linkage is ignored.

This short summary cannot capture all parts of our analysis, so for all the details, download the full paper here.



the author added another entry

http://reason.com/volokh/2018/03/28/the-2016-chicago-homicide-spike-further

On Monday, I discussed Professor Fowles and my article about what caused the 2016 Chicago homicide spike. Our paper argued that the causal mechanism was likely an ACLU consent decree with the Chicago Police Department, which led to sharp decline in stop and frisks—and, we believe, a consequent sharp increase in homicides (and other shooting crimes). Since our paper was announced in The Chicago Tribune, distinguished law professor John Pfaff has tweeted a series of comments about our article, and the ACLU has commented as well. I wanted to briefly respond.

ChicagoVictim3.jpg
A woman holding a child watches as officers transport a person who was shot near the intersection of South May Street and West 58th Street on Monday, Dec. 26, 2016 in Chicago, Ill. (Armando L. Sanchez/Chicago Tribune/TNS)

Turning first to Professor Pfaff's tweets, it is useful to start with several points of agreement. Professor Pfaff notes that the causal mechanism we propose—an ACLU agreement leads to fewer stops, fewer stops leads to more crime—is "wholly plausible." So far, so good.

But then Pfaff moves on to criticize us because our model "has only a handful of variables, almost all of them official criminal justice statistics, no social-economic statistics, and all at the city level (despite the intense concentration of violence in Chicago)." Let's address these concerns specifically.

First, as to the explanatory variables in our equations: In our most extensive model, we employ twenty variables—specifically stop and frisks (of course); temperature (since crime tends to spike in warm weather months); 911 calls (as a measure of police-citizen cooperation); homicides in Illinois excluding Chicago (as a measure of trends in Illinois); arrests for property crimes, violent crimes, homicides, gun crimes, shooting crimes, and drug crimes; homicides in St. Louis, Columbus, Louisville, Indianapolis, Grand Rapids, Gary, Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Detroit; and a time trend variable. All of these variables were based on monthly data, since we were attempting to explain homicide data reported on monthly basis. Interestingly, Professor Pfaff does not suggest any other readily-available monthly data that we could have included. Nor is it clear what sort of "socio-economic" statistics would have been relevant to explaining the homicide spike, which developed over a short period of time. It is true that our variables are not collected at the neighborhood level, but the city-wide level. But since our goal was to explain the Chicago homicide spike, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with looking at Chicago data.

The one specific variable that Professor Pfaff argues we failed to include was the "defunding of Cure Violence [a violence prevention program], which happened at the same time" as the spike. But it is curious that Professor Pfaff would take us to task for failing to look at this issue when, at the same time, he argues that the "best analysis" of the homicide spike was done by the University of Chicago Urban Lab. That (ultimately inconclusive) report specifically stated that "earlier in 2015, state funding for Cure Violence, a violence prevention organization operating in Chicago, was suspended, although the timing of that funding reduction does not seem to fit well as a candidate explanation for the increase in gun violence since the latter occurred at the end of 2015."

Professor Pfaff also mentions that our regression equations simply include (in one model) homicides rates in other cities, without developing difference-in-difference variables or synthetic controls. But there are advantages to parsimonious construction. We doubt whether such controls would have made any difference to our conclusions. Moreover, we relied on Bayesian Model Averaging (BMA) as, at least, a partial response to such concerns. We would be interested to what Pfaff thinks of our BMA findings—which compellingly demonstrate our findings' robustness within the included variables.

Professor Pfaff also raises a question about whether we have measured an "ACLU effect" or a "stop and frisk" effect. It is true, of course, that our regression equations explain homicides (and shooting crimes) by using stop and frisk as an explanatory variable. A linkage between stop-and-frisk tactics and homicides is an important finding in and of itself—a finding with which we hope Professor Pfaff might, to some degree, agree. But the logical next question is why did stop and frisks fall in Chicago at the end of 2015? This question is not as well suited to quantitative analysis as other questions, since it appears to be policy-driven. In any event, as Professor Pfaff even-handedly notes, we provide a qualitative defense of our position that the ACLU agreement caused the reduction in stop and frisks. Among other things, this is what the ACLU itself said—at least before the reduction became controversial.

Professor Pfaff also wonders why we do not attempt to quantify the costs of aggressive policing. Our paper explicitly addressed this point, agreeing that proactive policing has costs. But as anyone who has read the stop and frisk literature is well aware, many previous articles have articulated those costs. Our (perhaps already too-lengthy) paper focused on the other side of the cost-benefit equation, hoping to spark a discussion about how to strike a balance among competing concerns.

This issue of balancing competing concerns leads Professor Pfaff to raise a cautionary note about whether our findings are simply, as he puts it, a "Constitutional Effect" rather than an "ACLU Effect." If things were so starkly simple as saying that all the additional stop and frisks that CPD conducted in 2015 compared to 2016 were unconstitutional, Pfaff might have an argument. But, again, our paper was more limited. The ACLU has justified its efforts to reduce stop and frisks, in part, by making the policy argument that there is "no discernible link between the rate of invasive street stops and searches by police and the level of violence . . . There simply is not any evidence of this so-called [ACLU] effect." We believe it is fair to respond specifically to ACLU's claim as part of what must necessarily be a much broader discussion about what are "unreasonable searches and seizures."

We are encouraged by the fact that Professor Pfaff, based in New York City, is concerned about a common argument advanced about the efficacy of stop and frisk in fighting gun violence—that New York's experience proves that no such linkage exists. We explained at length in our paper differences between New York and Chicago:

In 2016, New York's homicide rate was only 3.9 per 100,000 population, while Chicago's was 27.8—a rate more than 700% higher. But the relevant differences between the two cities may be even higher than this already staggering difference suggests. Looking at homicides committed by firearms, in 2016 New York's rate was 2.3 compared to Chicago's rate of 25.1—a rate more than 1000% higher. This is important because, as discussed earlier, gun crimes may be particularly sensitive to stop and frisk policies. In addition, because New York has such a small number of guns and gun crimes (relative to Chicago and many other cities), it can concentrate resources on preventing gun crimes in a way that other cities cannot....

Another problem in equating New York's circumstances with Chicago's is that the level of police power is different. Famously, New York has high levels of law enforcement. . . New York had about 153 law enforcement employees for every homicide committed in the city, while Chicago had only about 17 employees for every homicide committed—a 900% difference. The difference is even greater if one combines both the gun homicide and police force numbers. Per gun homicide, New York has roughly 260 employees, while Chicago has only 19—a 1360% difference. To this point it might be objected that a homicide is a homicide, so it makes no sense to break out gun homicides separately. But homicides are not all alike. To the contrary, in general, homicides committed by firearms are more difficult to solve than other kinds of homicides, only adding to the relative difficulties for the Chicago Police Department. Moreover, in 2016, about 23% of New York's homicides were gang-related, while roughly 67% (or more) of Chicago's homicides and shootings appear to have been gang-related. Here again, gang-related homicides may be more difficult to solve than are other homicides, particularly in Chicago.

Professor Pfaff notes that our arguments distinguishing Chicago from New York "deserve attention."

In several concluding tweets, Professor Pfaff wonders about whether homicides "spiked" in Chicago? Or did they rise steadily? Here we have a section of our paper that quantitatively analyzes this point in detail. After seasonally adjusting the data, we are able to perform a standard structural break analysis on our four dependent variables: homicides, fatal shootings, non-fatal shootings, and total shootings. We are able to find structural breaks in all four data series in and around November 2015.

In responding to each of Professor Pfaff's questions to us, it may be fair to pose a single question back to him. Based on our review of on-the-street reports from Chicago, regression analysis of the available data, qualitative analysis of possible "omitted variables," and relevant criminology literature, we believe that the best explanation for the 2016 Chicago homicide spike a was reduction in stop and frisks triggered by the ACLU consent decree. If isn't the best explanation, is there a better one?

The ACLU of Illinois has also commented on our paper. Some of the arguments that the ACLU raises are surprising, because the ACLU does not acknowledge that we addressed them at length in our paper. For example, the ACLU points to New York's experience in reducing stop and frisk, writing that we fail to "explain why other cities have undergone similar adjustments to stop-and-frisk without 'causing' an increase in homicides." As the block quotation above illustrates, we offered specific explanations—explanations the ACLU does not discuss.

The ACLU contends that our study failed to "grapple with significant events that coincided with the data" we used. Here again, we were surprised to see a listing of things the ACLU believes we did not grapple with when, in fact, we specifically discussed them in our paper—e.g, the release of the Laquan MacDonald video (pp. 35-42), the change in police leadership (pp. 44-46), the Illinois state budget impasse (p. 52), and the federal civil rights investigation (pp. 42-44). Similarly, the ACLU argues that we failed to an Illinois state law similar to the consent degree—a subject we (once again) discussed at length (at pp. 72-74).

The ACLU also notes that we did not include in our regression equations a variable for traffic stops—which increased in 2016 when street stops declined, presumably because Chicago police officers were redeployed from making street stops to traffic stops. We are not certain why the ACLU believes this is an important factor, because traffic stops are not identified in the criminology literature as associated with reducing homicides and gun violence. In contrast, street stops are.

The ACLU also suggests, quite inaccurately, that we are arguing for police to make unconstitutional stops to burden minority communities. But we specifically disclaimed any such position and, indeed, urged that the voices of minority communities receive special weight in evaluating these issues. Our article highlighted the need to hear minority voices on these questions. Here it is worth quoting a passage in our paper that the ACLU appears to have overlooked:

At the same time, however, our findings may be useful to communities in Chicago and other parts of the country that are considering these issues, particularly minority communities. Our research strongly suggests, contrary to claims made by some observers, that CPD's stop and frisk practices have an important effect in providing increased public safety for minority residents in Chicago. For example, if we simply take our finding that extending the stop and frisk practices through 2016 would have saved approximately 236 lives—and if we assume that those saved lives would have been distributed in the same ratios as were found in 2016 for all Chicago homicides—then the lives of about 184 African-American homicide victims and 38 Hispanic victims would have been saved in that one year. Our findings thus suggest that, just as gun violence exacts a disproportionate toll on minority communities, stop and frisk as a response to that violence provides special benefits for those communities—benefits that are often overlooked and may strengthen the arguments of voices within minority communities calling for strong stop and frisk policies.

Finally, the ACLU suggests that our analysis incorrectly attributes the decline in stop and frisks to its agreement with the Chicago Police Department. We find this attack particularly hard to understand. In February 2016, when CPD's decline in stop and frisks was first materializing—but before the full consequences had of the decline had yet to be understood—the ACLU took credit for the decline, calling it a "good thing" resulting from the agreement. Of course, whether or not it was a good thing requires a full assessment of the consequences. We hope that our article provides additional information about the agreement's consequences that will help citizens in Chicago as they consider how best to respond to tragic levels of gun violence in the city.
 
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Your statistics mean nothing when compared to my Political Correctness!
 
Trying to compare this to gun regs is like comparing the right to buy certain pairs of pants with the right to allow strangers to put their hands in the pockets of the pants you're wearing.

This OP reflects some significant 2A brain rot.
 
Trying to compare this to gun regs is like comparing the right to buy certain pairs of pants with the right to allow strangers to put their hands in the pockets of the pants you're wearing.

This OP reflects some significant 2A brain rot.

Why does white kids getting killed bother you so much more then black kids being killed?
 
The same people that want to force others to give up their rights for the good of the kids don't want to hear this.

If you want to cut crime restrict the 4th and allow searches outside of your home.

Is it against the 4th, well yes it can be seen that way. However we restrict other rights. It comes down to what you are willing to give up.
 
Trying to compare this to gun regs is like comparing the right to buy certain pairs of pants with the right to allow strangers to put their hands in the pockets of the pants you're wearing.

This OP reflects some significant 2A brain rot.

You mean like allowing someone to take your property.
 
Either we have constitution or we don't. They ended stop n frisk in NYC and homicides went down.
 
So this paper brings up a interesting dilemma and this thread somewhat mirror my last thread about gun deaths. Here there is pretty good evidence that arguably unconstitutional stop and frisk police tactics do decrease murder rates. The question presented is how much of a reduction in homicide is enough to justify obtrusive policing of this nature? Secondly. do you believe the ACLU did a good or bad thing in bringing their lawsuit in terms of societal benefit?


link to paper
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3145287
link to article
http://reason.com/volokh/2018/03/26/the-2016-chicago-homicide-spike-explaine


As the Chicago Tribune reported this morning, University of Utah Economics Professor Richard Fowles and I have just completed an important article on the 2016 Chicago homicide spike. Through multiple regression analysis and other tools, we conclude that an ACLU consent decree trigged a sharp reduction in stop and frisks by the Chicago Police Department, which in turn caused homicides to spike. Sadly, what Chicago police officers dubbed the "ACLU effect" was real—and more homicides and shootings were the consequence.

The analysis is relatively straightforward. It is well known that homicides increased dramatically in Chicago in 2016. In 2015, 480 Chicago residents were killed. The next year, 754 were killed—274 more homicide victims, tragically producing an extraordinary 58% increase in a single year. What happened?

Many commentators have observed this startling year-to-year change in homicides. However, a surprising lack of empirical effort has been devoted to exploring the causal factor or factors. This issue is, to put it bluntly, of life or death importance. Against a frightening backdrop of an annual baseline of about 500 homicides in Chicago each year, something in 2016 led to the death of more than 250 additional victims in a single year.

In our paper, Professor Fowles and I bring empirical research tools to bear in an attempt to identify what changed in Chicago during that time. While such analysis may be unable to provide absolutely definitive answers, it can suggest which factors are more likely than others to have been responsible. Given that, quite literally, more than two hundred additional victims died in 2016 in some of Chicago's most impoverished neighborhoods—and more might similarly be killed in the future in Chicago and elsewhere—finding answers must be regarded as a high priority.

Our article proceeds in several steps. It begins by describing in general terms what is quite accurately called a "spike" in homicides in Chicago in 2016. A 58% year-to-year change in America's "Second City" is staggering, suggesting something changed dramatically to initiate the increase.

We next attempt to pinpoint the time when things changed in Chicago—what might be called the "inflection" or "break" point in the data series. We begin by seasonally adjusting Chicago homicide and shooting data, which show significant seasonal fluctuation from cold weather months to warm weather months. Once the data are seasonally adjusted, a change or "break" in the data series can be statistically detected around November 2015.

We next explore the possibility that, as been suggested by a number of observers, a reduction in stop and frisks by the Chicago Police Department that began at the very end of 2015 was responsible for the homicide spike starting immediately thereafter. Good reasons exist for believing that the decline in stop and frisks caused the spike. Simple visual observation of the data suggests a cause-and-effect change. In the chart below, we depict the (seasonally unadjusted) monthly number of stop and frisks (in blue) and the monthly number of homicides (in gold). The vertical line is placed at November 2015—the break point in the homicide data. This is precisely when stop and frisks declined in Chicago.

Chart-two-fact.jpg


Detailed regression analysis of the homicide (and related shooting) data strongly supports what visual observation suggests. Using monthly data from 2012 through 2016, we are able to control for such factors as temperature, homicides in other parts of Illinois, 9-1-1 calls (as a measure of police-citizen cooperation), and arrests for various types of crimes. Even controlling for these factors, our equations indicate that the steep decline in stop and frisks was strongly linked, at high levels of statistical significance, to the sharp increase in homicides (and other shooting crimes) in 2016.

We also explain why the possibly contrary experience with reductions in stop and frisks in New York City may be exceptional and inapplicable to Chicago and other cities. New York has comparatively low levels of gun violence—and stop and frisk tactics may be particularlyl important for deterring gun crimes.

We then qualitatively search for other possible factors that might be responsible for the Chicago homicide spike. For various reasons, none of these other candidates fit the data as well as the decline in stop and frisks. In addition, Bayesian Model Averaging ("BMA") provide strong statistical evidence that our findings are robust in the sense that they are not due to inclusion or exclusion of any particular variables in our equations.

Our equations permit us to quantify the costs of the decline in stop and frisks, both in human and financial terms. We conclude that, because of fewer stop and frisks in 2016, a conservative estimate is that approximately 236 additional homicides and 1115 additional shootings occurred during that year. A reasonable estimate of the social costs associated with these additional homicides and shootings is about $1,500,000,000. And these costs are heavily concentrated in Chicago's African-American and Hispanic communities.

In our penultimate section, we explain why the ACLU settlement agreement with the Chicago Police Department is the most likely cause of the decline in stop and frisks. Indeed, the ACLU took credit for the decline in stop and frisks at the start of 2016.

We conclude by offering some tentative suggestions for how policy-makers might reassess the importance and benefits of stop and frisk practices on the streets of Chicago and other cities. We also situate our findings within a larger body of developing empirical literature supporting the conclusion that restrictions on law enforcement investigations has real-world consequences by reducing police effectiveness. Sadly, Chicago's 2016 homicide spike may be a reflection of the tragic consequences that follow when that linkage is ignored.

This short summary cannot capture all parts of our analysis, so for all the details, download the full paper here.

I don't have time to read the entire 95 page research paper. Do they say if the reduction in stop and frisk resulted in other changes in policing behavior? The abstract points out that the end of stop and frisk in NYC yielded different outcomes than in Chicago.
 
NVM, answered my own question. On pages 25-28, they discuss some of the differences between Chicago and NYC that impact the different outcomes.

NYC has fewer guns per person to begin with, more police officers, the larger amount of officers means that NYC can employ different strategies for dealing with potential gun violence, and more gentrification. All interesting. Sounds like a solid argument to increase the number of police in Chicago.
 
NVM, answered my own question. On pages 25-28, they discuss some of the differences between Chicago and NYC that impact the different outcomes.

NYC has fewer guns per person to begin with, more police officers, the larger amount of officers means that NYC can employ different strategies for dealing with potential gun violence, and more gentrification. All interesting. Sounds like a solid argument to increase the number of police in Chicago.

I just noticed the new wife pic. Does she take these or do you? I'd be interested in seeing all of your avatars in one thread sometime. Just to see her progression over the years.
 
I just noticed the new wife pic. Does she take these or do you? I'd be interested in seeing all of your avatars in one thread sometime. Just to see her progression over the years.

She takes them while we're out, selfies and shit. Every so often, I see one I like. I edit out me and my son and update the av. I actually have all of the past ones in a folder somewhere. It's hard to imagine that I've been posting on here for almost 9 years. I wonder what will come first, my leaving the site or her finally feeling that she's too old for this specific exposure. Tangentially, it's interesting in that we're of that first generation that's going to grow old on Facebook. The previous generations were already in their middle years when Facebook picked up steam and didn't fully adopt it until they even older. The next generation is growing up on entirely on Facebook. Only this middle group got on Facebook while in our youthful primes. Sorry, that's tangential to your thread.
 
I just noticed the new wife pic. Does she take these or do you? I'd be interested in seeing all of your avatars in one thread sometime. Just to see her progression over the years.

gddy.gif
 
Why does white kids getting killed bother you so much more then black kids being killed?

My rule on rights comes straight from Jesus: I don't support curbing the right of anyone else that I wouldn't want curbed in my own life.

It's pretty simple.

So, I don't want cops giving me a random pat down. But I am fine with registering my firearms or passing an instructional course in order to buy a handgun or semi-auto.
 
You mean like allowing someone to take your property.

Cops don't take your property following most stop-and-frisks. They just want to see what you've got. You get to keep it after you've been searched.

I was stopped and frisked a couple times outside a store on a Saturday night when I was a teen. My rights were probably violated. But I was just a kid who didn't know any better.
 
Police should have less power NEVER more power.
 
The "tough on crime" approach also increased the number of homicides in Chicago, are you advocating less police presence and more leeway for potential criminals? Chicago is the way it is partly because the cops took a RICO approach to things and fucked it up.
 
Fuck stop and frisk. But yeah, if it works then it should get plenty of support from those supposedly concerned about violence (and unconcerned with Constitutionality when it comes to firearm restrictions).
 
Cops don't take your property following most stop-and-frisks. They just want to see what you've got. You get to keep it after you've been searched.

I was stopped and frisked a couple times outside a store on a Saturday night when I was a teen. My rights were probably violated. But I was just a kid who didn't know any better.

Doubt they chose you randomly for a search. I doubt you committed a crime, too. Quite possibly had a call for someone matching your description. Pat downs are done during most pedestrian checks. I didn't do them every time
 
Anyone who bitches about gun rights but want LEO's to arbitrarily pat down and grope your junk based on hunches is an ignorant piece of shit. This is such a clear and flagrant infringement on personal rights and space. Saying you can't buy some obscure add-on that makes you able to shoot 2 rounds a second instead of 1 is tyranny, but having some mustached cowboy finger you through your pants is just law and order.

The hypocrisy of people amazes me.
 
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