Recent fights/results/news from China

[jtwarwagon4life]

I certainly wouldn't advocate putting it priority over more useful techniques, but due to its limited window I think that makes it more effective due to its sporadic nature.

That said, in my 10 years of training I've never put a ton of effort into mastering these kinds of kicks, but I've sparred with plenty of guys from TKD backgrounds and they can sometimes catch you off gaurd. They can also be shut down pretty easy when you see them coming, it's when you don't see them coming that's when you end up like Wanchalong or Singdam who aren't used to those style of kicks.

I don't see any real disagreement here. In fact, you just said that in order to defend those kinds of kicks, you don't need to know how to throw them, you just need to be accustomed to seeing them.

As for them being surprising I'm not sure that's really an endorsement of them. I would think you would want the techniques you used to have inherent integrity, not be gimmicks which rely on the ignorance of your opponents.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I don't see any real disagreement here. In fact, you just said that in order to defend those kinds of kicks, you don't need to know how to throw them, you just need to be accustomed to seeing them.

As for them being surprising I'm not sure that's really an endorsement of them. I would think you would want the techniques you used to have inherent integrity, not be gimmicks which rely on the ignorance of your opponents.

Not everything has to be a disagreement here, just discussing.

However you did just say something I do disagree with, that the technique is a gimmick because it's easy to defend against when you see it coming. Most strikes are defendable when you see them coming.

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

(...) in my 10 years of training I've never put a ton of effort into mastering these kinds of kicks, but I've sparred with plenty of guys from TKD backgrounds and they can sometimes catch you off gaurd. They can also be shut down pretty easy when you see them coming, it's when you don't see them coming that's when you end up like Wanchalong or Singdam who aren't used to those style of kicks.

from my experience TKD spinning kicks are only useful when there's a huge gap in skills in favor of the TKD guy. I'm not saying that I (a white boy scrub who trains after work) will be able to do it - the style I use is far more effective but a legit TKD black belt would whoop me pretty good - but when someone starts that spinning motion you can always see it from a mile away and it's pretty easy to move out of the way. actually countering effectively takes much more experience but if you take a step forward you tangle with them from their back with lots of options to attack.

at the highest levels almost everytime that there was a KO via spinning shit it was due to the guy in the receiving end dropping his hands to block what they thought was a kick to the body. both Wanchalong and Singdam KOs were epic flukes IMO. Wanchalong could very well be on his way to lose anyway but that particular kick landing to the jaw was flukey.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Ya I can't go along with that line of thinking. Someone intends to land a specific kick, lands it and gets a KO. Theirs nothing flukey about that at all. Timing and athleticism came into play.

A right cross in theory is easy to defend against too when you see it coming, would you consider knock outs from a right cross flukey?

There is a chance to defend litterally every technique out there. Failure to defend doesn't mean the strike wasnt legitimate, in fact it means quite the opposite.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

However you did just say something I do disagree with, that the technique is a gimmick because it's easy to defend against when you see it coming. Most strikes are defendable when you see them coming.

No, that you can defend something when you see it coming it coming is a truism. I said it is something which can be defended against, most of the time, when you have had exposure to it previously. For example, a cross is not easy to defend against, when used by a skilled practitioner, even if you have sparred with people who throw lots of crosses. That's the difference between something being a gimmick and being a solid technique. One relies pretty much entirely on surprise the other does not.

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

Ya I can't go along with that line of thinking. Someone intends to land a specific kick, lands it and gets a KO. Theirs nothing flukey about that at all. Timing and ahleticism came into play.

A right cross in theory is easy to defend against too when you see it coming, would you consider knock outs from a right cross flukey?

There is a chance to defend litterally every technique out there. Failure to defend doesn't mean the strike wasnt legitimate, in fact it means quite the opposite.

Tenshin intended to land a spinning back kick to the body and Wanchalong dipped his head at the same time to throw a right hook and ducked right into the kick. with his jaw into what was a body kick. that's why I'm calling it a fluke. the one with Singdam I may be off as I didn't watch the full fight. I'm just claiming fluke due to someone at his level getting caught with a kick like that against a random opponent. maybe the other guy threw several spinning kicks to the body setting up the head kick?

a KO from a right cross stems from someone throwing a right cross to the head so it's not the same situation. also the right cross motion is much quicker and shorter and that strike is always set up by a jab or a feint or something so I would never compare it to a spinning kick. even when you see it coming, it's not that easy to defend other than just blocking with your guard.

 

[Snubnoze707]

No, that you can defend something when you see it coming it coming is a truism. I said it is something which can be defended against, most of the time, when you have had exposure to it previously. For example, a cross is not easy to defend against, when used by a skilled practitioner, even if you have sparred with people who throw lots of crosses. That's the difference between something being a gimmick and being a solid technique. One relies pretty much entirely on surprise the other does not.

Ones just more useful than the other. I don't see how that makes the other a gimmick, it's real and causes real KO's. It just has to be used properly. Going out there constantly throwing those spin kicks isn't a great idea, but scattered throughout it has potential to get your hands raised, and it has. Those are just the facts.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Tenshin intended to land a spinning back kick to the body and Wanchalong dipped his head at the same time to throw a right hook and ducked right into the kick. with his jaw into what was a body kick. that's why I'm calling it a fluke. the one with Singdam I may be off as I didn't watch the full fight. I'm just claiming fluke due to someone at his level getting caught with a kick like that against a random opponent. maybe the other guy threw several spinning kicks to the body setting up the head kick?

a KO from a right cross stems from someone throwing a right cross to the head so it's not the same situation. also the right cross motion is much quicker and shorter and that strike is always set up by a jab or a feint or something so I would never compare it to a spinning kick. even when you see it coming, it's not that easy to defend other than just blocking with your guard.

We can debate the intent of those strikes targets in those fights but only the fighter truely know so it's pointless. At the end of the day, the target was the opponent, and it landed, and it knocked them out.

I think you're missing my point. I'm certainly not saying a right cross isn't a better technique to utilize on a frequent basis, I'm just saying a spin kick landing and causing a KO is every bit as valid as a KO caused by a right cross. People duck into round kicks all the time too.

I just don't get the hate, other than some people's need to defend Muay Thai at every situation possible.

 

[Yodsanan]

Funny disregarding this win because of an somewhat "exotic" technique when the p4p greatest fighter himself is a trickster.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Ones just more useful than the other. I don't see how that makes the other a gimmick, it's real and causes real KO's. It just has to be used properly. Going out there constantly throwing those spin kicks isn't a great idea, but scattered throughout it has potential to get your hands raised, and it has. Those are just the facts.

Lots of techniques work, if the opponent doesn't know how to defend them or has never seen them before, it doesn't make them good. The Von Flue choke has gotten wins in the UFC, but I don't think that most grappling experts would consider it a "legit" submission. I'm not saying that a spinning back kick and a Von Flue choke are equivalent, but in general you don't want to train under the assumption that your opponent is ignorant or bad.

 

[Cocakillbana]

Funny disregarding this win because of an somewhat "exotic" technique when the p4p greatest fighter himself is a trickster.

But trick techniques are irrelevant to why he's so great. He doesn't win fights that way.

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

We can debate the intent of those strikes targets in those fights but only the fighter truely know so it's pointless. At the end of the day, the target was the opponent, and it landed, and it knocked them out.

I think you're missing my point. I'm certainly not saying a right cross isn't a better technique to utilize on a frequent basis, I'm just saying a spin kick landing and causing a KO is every bit as valid as a KO caused by a right cross. People duck into round kicks all the time too.

I just don't get the hate, other than some people's need to defend Muay Thai at every situation possible.

I agree 100% that dwelling too much into "intended targets" is pointless but IMO it's pretty clear that the Tenshin vs. Wanchalong KO was a body strike at origin. I think people don't even train a spinning back kick to the head do they? I don't intend to take credit away from Tenshin. I did say he was on his way to beat Wanchalong regardless but that kick was a perfect storm going his way.

I don't like spinning kicks myself indeed but I agree that scattered among other strikes they're just as valid as any other technique. they're just such low percentage strikes and I don't know of any fighter in the history of combat strikes that relied on them to perform well at an elite level. if Singdam had started exchanging combos in the pocket and got KTFO I would conclude that maybe their boxing skills are reasonably close. but I don't see that russian guy landing that high kick KO ever again if they fought 1000 times so it's a different situation.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

But trick techniques are irrelevant to why he's so great. He doesn't win fights that way.

Saenchai introduced disruptive technology into muay thai. This is known.

 

[Yodsanan]

But trick techniques are irrelevant to why he's so great. He doesn't win fights that way.

that's not the point I'm making. Saenchai's advocating freedom of movement and showing more then standart techniques because he can and likes to entertain the crowd.

Now we got a russian dude, that actually incoperates spinning techniques successfully into his muay thai and he get's hate for no reason.

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

Now we got a russian dude, that actually incoperates spinning techniques successfully into his muay thai and he get's hate for no reason.

pondering that he got lucky on landing a flush spinning heel kick KO to a muay thai legend is not hating. all power to the dude.

 

[tru3f4n]

wow you guys are trippin balls it isn't like this is the first time someone has ever thrown or landed this type of kick in Kickboxing and or Muay Thai you guys are starting to sound like MMA fans.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Saenchai's advocating freedom of movement

What does that mean?

 

[Yodsanan]

What does that mean?

do whatever the fuck you want to do in the ring, if it works for you.

 

[Snubnoze707]

wow you guys are trippin balls it isn't like this is the first time someone has ever thrown or landed this type of kick in Kickboxing and or Muay Thai you guys are starting to sound like MMA fans.

This is probably the most civil debate in this forums history. Please don't compare us to those animals.

 

[AbeRudder]

TKD, Karate and American kickboxers still get hit with spinning attacks despite the fact that they are common techniques in those disciplines. To say once you are used to them they become nullified is over simplistic imo.