Reasons to suggest that Jon Jones is better than Might Mouse

[glasshouses999]

Jonny is suspended from the sport due to suspicious performance enhancing drugs, he claims it was because he couldn't crack a phat...

Either way he is a self proclaimed pussy.

Lol

 

[Fight Professor]

"MM is highly entertaining"

I stopped reading there.

 

[Escabar]

how can i have 7000 likes when theres only 7 million people in the world??

Billion not million learn to read kid.

 

[Superzorro]

I love how the moment Jones came onto the scene at light heavyweight, all fighters in the division simultaneously became too old and past their prime. It's a natural phenomenon.

 

[glasshouses999]

I love how the moment Jones came onto the scene at light heavyweight, all fighters in the division simultaneously became too old and past their prime. It's a natural phenomenon.

That's a bit of an overstatement. I definitely don't think Machida was past his prime at all when he fought Jon and he actually fought really well against Jon. I don't think Rampage was past his prime either, he was 33 and was looking good until the Jones fight and went downhill after it. He fought and destroyed TRT Belfort (after letting his arm be hyper-extended) who was running through most fighters at the time. Rashad and Rua were passed their prime but it wasn't like they were remotely washed up or out of place in a title fight. Sonnen was a total mismatch (funny how no one talks about how if Jon was on steroids he manhandled other steroid users). Glover was on a 20 fight win streak, DC is DC, and Gus is a very legit fighter. To me that's a pretty fucking impressive resume.

 

[Kelman]

Why do you take steroids!

Absolutely hilarious jokes aside, the fact that you dont think steroid use matters if you're not a "strength-based" fighter really does show you up as being a truly horrible fuckwit with an IQ lower than that of Matt Riddle. Embarrassing levels of stupidity there.

And that's before we even get to the awful "strength-based vs technique-based" concept...

And that's even before we get to the ludicrous notion that if a "strength-based" fighter is a meaningful designation (which it obviously, definitely isnt in the context of steroid use), then takedown machine, clinch king, and human ragdoller Jon Jones isnt strength-based????


This thread should be exploded and wiped out of the databases for its crimes against sense, decency, and Sherdog's reputation.

Abysmal.

 

[glasshouses999]

Absolutely hilarious jokes aside, the fact that you dont think steroid use matters if you're not a "strength-based" fighter really does show you up as being a truly horrible fuckwit with an IQ lower than that of Matt Riddle. Embarrassing levels of stupidity there.

And that's before we even get to the awful "strength-based vs technique-based" concept...

And that's even before we get to the ludicrous notion that if a "strength-based" fighter is a meaningful designation (which it obviously, definitely isnt in the context of steroid use), then takedown machine, clinch king, and human ragdoller Jon Jones isnt strength-based????


This thread should be exploded and wiped out of the databases for its crimes against sense, decency, and Sherdog's reputation.

Abysmal.

Saying he's not a strength based fighter is completely different to saying he doesn't use strength, or that his strength isn't an important part of his repertoire (which it very obviously is). The point is that he doesn't simply use superhuman strength or knockout power to win fights, he does a lot through his technique, fight IQ and skill. If he displays some level of strength that is a superfluous point because you don't require steroids to have a decent level of strength. The point I was making is that it is ridiculous to say he would not be Jon Jones without steroids when his skills combined with an average amount of strength or knockout power would destroy other fighters. Did he not manhandle a TRT Vitor who looked like he'd been spawned in a laboratory? Notice a difference between Johny Hendricks pre-USADA, Gleison Tibau and Nurmagomedov (not saying he's on steroids just that he's strong) and Jon Jones or MM. It's "not only" strength (and nowhere near the most important part) or "power" that makes the latter two incredible fighters. you can dismiss Jon Jones as a steroid user but who defeated Machida and TRT Vitor (I won't mention Sonnen) ?

 

[empsim]

jones beat former champs and legends, MM beat guys who nobody knows

its not MM's fault and maybe he is better than jones but competition matters

 

[Kelman]

Saying he's not a strength based fighter is completely different to saying he doesn't use strength,

A "strength-based fighter" is a totally pointless classification, as the vast majority of fighters rely on strength, lest their techniques wouldn't actually work.

To draw a distinction between "strength-based" and "technique-based" is moronic, because it implies they are exclusive.

Strength without technique is Bob Sapp - ie, a fossil that doesn't exist in the sport anymore. Technique without strength is nobody in MMA, because such a person couldn't exist in the sport.

or that his strength isn't an important part of his repertoire (which it very obviously is). The point is that he doesn't simply use superhuman strength or knockout power to win fights,

He does. If Jones wasn't so strong, his techniques wouldn't work. He relies very heavily on strength, as does any fighter who puts so much energy into clinchfighting, takedowns, top control, etc.

If Jones wasn't heavier and stronger than virtually everyone he faces at lhw, he'd be a far, far lesser fighter.

he does a lot through his technique, fight IQ and skill.

All of which are enabled by his huge advantages in size and strength. Take away his techniques and you still have a physical freak who could succeed, as there are many physical marvels who have success in MMA without being technically great. But take away his size and strength, and he's basically a mediocre boxer with unorthodox striking who won't be able to get takedowns or control the clinch.

If he displays some level of strength that is a superfluous point because you don't require steroids to have a decent level of strength.

Throughout his prime he displayed incredible strength though. Incredible. Who else has ever handled Daniel Cormier? Nobody. Not at lhw, nor hw.

The point I was making is that it is ridiculous to say he would not be Jon Jones without steroids

It wouldn't be ridiculous at all. Jones popped for steroids at age 28. Are we seriously supposed to believe that was the first time he had taken them? This wasn't a guy at 36 or 38 or 40 trying to come back from injury or terrified that his career was over and trying to arrest a slump in form, this was a physical phenomenon being caught red-handed at his athletic peak. To any sensible person, there is now a huge cloud over the performances he was able to achieve in his prime. Anyone denying this is in fantasyland.

Saying he would not be Jon Jones without steroids is speculative, but it is not ridiculous. On the evidence we have, it is eminently possible. A lot will be proven if he comes back and is subject to rigorous USADA testing. He didn't look his old self at all when clean vs OSP, so the doubts continue to grow.

when his skills combined with an average amount of strength or knockout power would destroy other fighters.

You can't seriously be trying to pretend that Jon Jones has only "average" strength for his division. That is an utterly insane statement to make.

Did he not manhandle a TRT Vitor who looked like he'd been spawned in a laboratory?

Vitor was a middleweight, and not a particularly large one. Jones is the biggest, strongest lhw in MMA history. It's not remotely surprising or impressive that Jones managed to manhandle him. The same Vitor had already been getting his ass handed to him by Rumble before Rumble gassed and broke, and the same Vitor who was wiped out by one Anderson Silva kick. Any top lhw would have tooled that version of Vitor. Rashad would have wrestlefucked him just like he did to Sonnen. The difference between mw and lhw is huge.

Notice a difference between Johny Hendricks pre-USADA, Gleison Tibau and Nurmagomedov (not saying he's on steroids just that he's strong) and Jon Jones or MM.

Jones looked noticeably poorer in every way vs OSP.

It's "not only" strength (and nowhere near the most important part) or "power" that makes the latter two incredible fighters.

Strength is massive, massive part of Jones's effectiveness, as is size. That's patently obvious to any human being with eyes.

you can dismiss Jon Jones as a steroid user

I don't dismiss him. I question him. I can't dismiss him as I don't know what the impact of steroids have been on his career, but likewise, you can't laud him as GOAT when the guy popped at 28 and might well have been a roid-fuelled mirage this entire time.

but who defeated Machida and TRT Vitor (I won't mention Sonnen) ?

Machida and Sonnen are both far too small to have been fighting in the modern lhw division as well. You saw what Rashad did to Chael. You saw that Machida couldn't even beat Phil Davis despite being vastly superior to him. Size matters. Weight matters. Strength matters. Machida wasn't even a big middleweight, he was clearly, clearly the smaller man vs Weidman and Rockhold and Romero, so the idea that he was ever supposed to compete with Jones is laughable. Ditto Sonnen, who was completely done once the strength advantage he enjoyed at mw was gone up at lhw.

You're basically citing examples of where the biggest, strongest lhw in history beat up on some tiny, older mw's as evidence that the lhw out-techniqued roid machines! It's an unbearably stupid line of argument. Rashad and Gustafsson and Rumble would all have smashed Machida and Sonnen just as easy as Jones did, because they were not physically cut out for the contemporary lhw scene.

Dismal.

 

[glasshouses999]

A "strength-based fighter" is a totally pointless classification, as the vast majority of fighters rely on strength, lest their techniques wouldn't actually work.

To draw a distinction between "strength-based" and "technique-based" is moronic, because it implies they are exclusive.

Strength without technique is Bob Sapp - ie, a fossil that doesn't exist in the sport anymore. Technique without strength is nobody in MMA, because such a person couldn't exist in the sport.



He does. If Jones wasn't so strong, his techniques wouldn't work. He relies very heavily on strength, as does any fighter who puts so much energy into clinchfighting, takedowns, top control, etc.

If Jones wasn't heavier and stronger than virtually everyone he faces at lhw, he'd be a far, far lesser fighter.



All of which are enabled by his huge advantages in size and strength. Take away his techniques and you still have a physical freak who could succeed, as there are many physical marvels who have success in MMA without being technically great. But take away his size and strength, and he's basically a mediocre boxer with unorthodox striking who won't be able to get takedowns or control the clinch.



Throughout his prime he displayed incredible strength though. Incredible. Who else has ever handled Daniel Cormier? Nobody. Not at lhw, nor hw.



It wouldn't be ridiculous at all. Jones popped for steroids at age 28. Are we seriously supposed to believe that was the first time he had taken them? This wasn't a guy at 36 or 38 or 40 trying to come back from injury or terrified that his career was over and trying to arrest a slump in form, this was a physical phenomenon being caught red-handed at his athletic peak. To any sensible person, there is now a huge cloud over the performances he was able to achieve in his prime. Anyone denying this is in fantasyland.

Saying he would not be Jon Jones without steroids is speculative, but it is not ridiculous. On the evidence we have, it is eminently possible. A lot will be proven if he comes back and is subject to rigorous USADA testing. He didn't look his old self at all when clean vs OSP, so the doubts continue to grow.



You can't seriously be trying to pretend that Jon Jones has only "average" strength for his division. That is an utterly insane statement to make.



Vitor was a middleweight, and not a particularly large one. Jones is the biggest, strongest lhw in MMA history. It's not remotely surprising or impressive that Jones managed to manhandle him. The same Vitor had already been getting his ass handed to him by Rumble before Rumble gassed and broke, and the same Vitor who was wiped out by one Anderson Silva kick. Any top lhw would have tooled that version of Vitor. Rashad would have wrestlefucked him just like he did to Sonnen. The difference between mw and lhw is huge.



Jones looked noticeably poorer in every way vs OSP.



Strength is massive, massive part of Jones's effectiveness, as is size. That's patently obvious to any human being with eyes.



I don't dismiss him. I question him. I can't dismiss him as I don't know what the impact of steroids have been on his career, but likewise, you can't laud him as GOAT when the guy popped at 28 and might well have been a roid-fuelled mirage this entire time.



Machida and Sonnen are both far too small to have been fighting in the modern lhw division as well. You saw what Rashad did to Chael. You saw that Machida couldn't even beat Phil Davis despite being vastly superior to him. Size matters. Weight matters. Strength matters. Machida wasn't even a big middleweight, he was clearly, clearly the smaller man vs Weidman and Rockhold and Romero, so the idea that he was ever supposed to compete with Jones is laughable. Ditto Sonnen, who was completely done once the strength advantage he enjoyed at mw was gone up at lhw.

You're basically citing examples of where the biggest, strongest lhw in history beat up on some tiny, older mw's as evidence that the lhw out-techniqued roid machines! It's an unbearably stupid line of argument. Rashad and Gustafsson and Rumble would all have smashed Machida and Sonnen just as easy as Jones did, because they were not physically cut out for the contemporary lhw scene.

Dismal.

Your OSP point makes zero sense. He was bigger and apparently stronger than ever due to weightlifting before that fight, so how does that work with your idea that strength is what makes him brilliant? and how do those muscles indicate he's not on steroids? It wasn't strength alone that made him good against Cormier, either. Yes strength is a very important part of why he is great, obviously, but there's many layers to his greatness. I was not saying if he was weak he would still be Jon Jones (no weak fighter could survive), I'm saying if he had the normal strength for a fighter his size, and he is a big LHW, that he would still be a great fighter due to his skill. Yes he is strong but it's not simply strength that makes him dominant (whilst with Khabib and Maia what they do would not work anywhere near as well without their huge strength advantage). His kicking, wrestling abilities, elbows, fight IQ and unpredictability would still make him an insane fighter. You're talking about someone miles ahead of most of his opponents and not a normal steroid user (again if he is one), most steroid users are not champions and not at the level of Jon Jones, if the guys on steroids are only that much better with them, how good does that make Jon? Where is Jones's huge physique that you speak of ? where are his giant traps and giant joint muscles? You are over-confident in your assessment, if he was using he was not using much. Steroids DO NOT make you gain hidden strength (muscles), so again if he was using he was not using much. That's my late response.

 

[Wardum]

p4p is BS anyways
lock them both in a room, and Bones merks MM

if you're true P4P you should be able to beat everyone.

 

[mirko>anyone]

lol no reason needed.

My eyes work just fine.

JJ>>>>>MM

 

[Danespina]

how many adult men are 5'1?
how many of them are professional athletes?
how many of them are professional fighters?
0.0000000000000000000000000000001%?

thats the talent pool dj is competing against lol, cant be goat sorry not sorry

lolol its a bit more than that, they're sized between about 5 2" to 5 6" but that size is still a lot less represented less than 6" - 6 4" LHW size, check my link above.

Flyweights are 5'2-5'10 (Hector Sandoval to Ulka Sasaki). DJ just happens to fall on the short end of that as he's one of the smallest in the company - a potential strawweight.

All the next potential flyweight contenders in Pettis, Moreno, and Dillashaw are 5'6-5'7, same as Elliott, who grossly outsized DJ.

 

[bigbangspiritbomb]

PEDs for starters, cocaine, JJ parties way the fuck harder, word is, he doesn't train for his fights, and lastly, he hid under the octagon at Greg Jackson's gym when USADA came looking for him (according to Sonnen) so, I would say all the above insinuates he is better then DJ or at the very least, he is more entertaining lol

 

[bigbangspiritbomb]

Jon Jones is goofy, stiff and stuck in the mud.
Mighty Mouse all day.

DJ crushes cans. JJ crushes dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are bigger so, unless this was a topic for goat manlet status...

 

[120wrestling]

1. He's undefeated (you know what I mean), granted MM lost fights at a weight class in which he was a lot smaller.
2. He is in a more talent stacked weight class (across all organisations and across the world LHW has more fighters). Contrary to what some MM fans on Sherdog have been saying there are actually more fighters at LHW than at FTW according to the tapology website with 574 to 462 across the globe https://www.tapology.com/rankings/groups/current. There are also more people in general around the LHW height (in the USA at least) https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2010/compendia/statab/130ed/tables/11s0205.pdf.
3. He is the more incredible fighter to watch. MM is highly entertaining but Jones is unlike anything else I've ever seen. His fighting is violent and unpredictable and is expressed through a bodily mechanics that is simply freakish. This is probably the biggest point I can make. Some suggest Mayweather is not the GOAT because of the way he fights, and whilst MM is an entertaining and unbelievably skilled fighter, he does not excite nor express combat in the same way Jones does. When you're watching Jones you are watching art. This is a very legitimate reason to suggest why one fighter is better when their records are within close proximity of each other.
4.MM is a more complete fighter but not by much. One of the biggest criticisms of Jon is his boxing, but watch the Glover fight and you will notice that he certainly "can" box but usually opts not to. Only the boxing and the BJJ of Jones "could" be said to be below that of MM, whilst every other skill is either level with or beyond MM.
5. Bigger threat of knockouts at LHW than FTW, meaning less margin for error. This point is pretty obvious.

Yes there is the PEDS issue with Jon that looms over him but I think that is overstated for two reasons. Firstly, Jon is a skill based fighter with incredible physical attributes, he is not a strength based fighter or a knockout artist (He is also not "big" and when he was "bigger" against OSP he fought worse). Secondly, many of the guys who he destroyed were known steroid users and judging by their bodies were on way more stuff than Jon (if he was indeed on stuff). This is not something MM has really had to deal with. Roids or no Roids Jon is a different animal to everyone else.

Lastly, it's perfectly fine and reasonable to say MM is the GOAT but saying you're only a true MMA fan if you think MM is the GOAT is ridiculous. We're entitled to choose favourites especially when you take into account fighting style and other basic facts.

Agreed with everything except you thinking Jones is better at any category than MM. There is not one facet of MMA that Jones is better than DJ.

DJ has better striking
DJ has better grappling
DJ has better wrestling
DJ is a better finisher.

 

[glasshouses999]

PEDs for starters, cocaine, JJ parties way the fuck harder, word is, he doesn't train for his fights, and lastly, he hid under the octagon at Greg Jackson's gym when USADA came looking for him (according to Sonnen) so, I would say all the above insinuates he is better then DJ or at the very least, he is more entertaining lol

You believe what Chael Sonnen says? Come on, that guy lies incessantly. That story is completely ridiculous, Greg Jackson would not risk the reputation of his entire gym by doing that

 

[bladee]

how many adult men are 5'1?
how many of them are professional athletes?
how many of them are professional fighters?
0.0000000000000000000000000000001%?

thats the talent pool dj is competing against lol, cant be goat sorry not sorry

lmao great post.

why is he banned? @Drake

 

[glasshouses999]

Agreed with everything except you thinking Jones is better at any category than MM. There is not one facet of MMA that Jones is better than DJ.

DJ has better striking
DJ has better grappling
DJ has better wrestling
DJ is a better finisher.

I said DJ has better boxing and perhaps better BJJ?

Jones is easily the better wrestler (that much is indisputable).
Jones has the better clinch and is the better striker in the clinch.
Jones has better overall striking, specifically he has better Muay Thai or whatever you want to call it (Gaidojitsu), his kicking kills DJ's, his elbows (spinning and on the ground) kill DJ's
DJ is a better boxer
DJ might have better BJJ
Jones is easily the better overall grappler
Finishing isn't a skill set.

 

[Fight Professor]

MM is highly entertaining

Stopped reading there