Ranch Battle in Nevada

[AgentOrange24]

I think that conservatives here were just excited to see a liberal on their level.

Heh, I knew that was coming.

Should have preempted it and said it myself.

 

[ncordless]

All right, that answers that question, however, I think there are still some questions to ponder over this.

Why does the Bureau of Land Management have an enforcement arm with paramilitary weapons? Or any number of government agencies.

As well, -if- Bundy have a valid argument, does it matter that he is a racist?

My guess would be that once in a while some rancher out in the boonies tries to get away with breaking the law by gathering a bunch of yahoos and threatening to shoot anybody that tries to get him to abide by the law.

 

[OldGoat]

hiya InternetHero,

the war on drugs? yeah, sure, that's absolutely true.

nowadays however, when i think of the hyper militarization of our law enforcement, i think "Patriot Act" more than anything else.

in any case, seeing how Cliven had a mob of armed domestic terrorists at his side, it's probably a reasonable that the Federal agents came prepared to protect themselves.

- IGIT

Those armed domestic terrorists have water boarded how many? How many children have they incinerated with drones? How many thousands have they imprisoned on trumped up charges with fictitious evidence?

 

[SMEAC]

My guess would be that once in a while some rancher out in the boonies tries to get away with breaking the law by gathering a bunch of yahoos and threatening to shoot anybody that tries to get him to abide by the law.

Name another time?

Are there not other alphabets that could be called and would present a better image and posture then blm yahoos?

Who was there first the federal yahoos or the civilian yahoos?

 

[panamaican]

Good post. You're consistently solid on this issue.

Have you seen this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/opinion/sunday/coates-beyond-the-code-of-the-streets.html

Kind of supplemental to your post.

An excerpt (but I recommend the whole thing):

Good read (the whole thing), thanks for the link.

 

[InternetHero]

My guess would be that once in a while some rancher out in the boonies tries to get away with breaking the law by gathering a bunch of yahoos and threatening to shoot anybody that tries to get him to abide by the law.

It might be a good idea to have actual law enforcement handle the problem then.

There have been more than a few cases of innocent people having paramilitarized forces break into their houses at dawn to shake them down late for things such as suspicion of marijuana. Kind of worrisome, right?

 

[Gandhi]

I don't know that I would agree with that either.

In no particular order these are the things that are destroying what the black community has tried to reestablish, regarding families:

1) The change in public school funding to local taxes has essentially meant that young black America will always get a second rate education if they stay in their traditional neighborhoods. This means that successful family role models are incentivized to leave black neighborhoods in search of better public school education. The result is that black neighborhoods remain filled with failed family models to serve as the models for the next generation.

2) The "War on Drugs" has resulted in a large number of young black men having criminal records. Now, while those black men are ultimately responsible for their own incarceration, the outcome is problematic for the family unit. Men in jail cannot be present fathers or husbands, nor serve as role models for the next generation. Furthermore, men with criminal records are frequently unable to find employment thus rendering them incapable of being meaningful contributors to the families they have. And making them hesitant to take on the roles traditionally reserved for the primary breadwinner - fathers and husbands.

3) The hyper-masculinization and over-sexualization of the black male, both from within the black community and from without. This has created generations of black men who associate their masculinity with violence, aggression and sexual conquests. Hardly family material.

4) The willingness of black women, both as mothers and as girlfriends, to accept point #3 in their sons and boyfriends.

Before someone else goes ape-sh*t on this list: Note that racism is not listed. That's not to say that racism does not impact all of those components, it's certainly the direct causation for points 1 and 3 and indirectly responsible for point 2. But racism does not cause the perpetuation of these cycles to the exclusion of all of other things. Breaking those cycles can be accomplished, regardless of whether or not someone thinks racism continues to play a role in modern America.

Good post thanks.

 

[Jukai]

Those armed domestic terrorists have water boarded how many? How many children have they incinerated with drones? How many thousands have they imprisoned on trumped up charges with fictitious evidence?

Your crocodile tears are hysterical. All of what is mentioned above are Republican policies that were started under a candidate that, most likely, said armed domestic terrorists voted for. These policies were unfortunately continued under the current administration because the conservative candidates going up against said current administration made said current administration look like a saint.

Regardless of your pitiful attempts to distract from the situation by bringing up COMPLETELY unrelated incidents, these 'armed domestic terrorists' are aiding a felon break the law. They are ready to die to continue to break the law.

 

[IGIT]

hello Internet Hero,

It might be a good idea to have actual law enforcement handle the problem then.

but the Federal officers from the BLM are members of law enforcement.

There have been more than a few cases of innocent people having paramilitarized forces break into their houses at dawn to shake them down late for things such as suspicion of marijuana. Kind of worrisome, right?

it's worrisome, i agree, but it also has nothing to do with this particular case. this isn't illegal search and seizure. far from it.

again, this entire issue had already be ruled upon, on more than one occasion, in US court of law. i'm getting the feeling your sort of fetishizing the word "paramilitary" to infer some kind of dark, illegal, Gestapo quality police force.

the Americans who work for the BLM who were tasked with collecting Mr. Bundy's herd met illegal armed resistance. there were militia members pointing their rifles and taking aim at Americans who work for our government.

i think the BLM showing up armed and ready to defend themselves was pretty reasonable.

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

Those armed domestic terrorists have water boarded how many? How many children have they incinerated with drones? How many thousands have they imprisoned on trumped up charges with fictitious evidence?

hi OldGoat,

if you want to talk about rendition, enhanced interrogation, or drone warfare under Mr. Obama, i'm happy to do so.

this thread, however, seems to be mostly on Mr. Cliven Bundy and his armed resistance to the elected government of United States.

he and his cohorts are terrorists.

- IGIT

 

[OldGoat]

hi OldGoat,

if you want to talk about rendition, enhanced interrogation, or drone warfare under Mr. Obama, i'm happy to do so.

this thread, however, seems to be mostly on Mr. Cliven Bundy and his armed resistance to the elected government of United States.

he and his cohorts are terrorists.

- IGIT

The 2nd amendment and the right to assemble are not terrorism.

 

[IGIT]

The 2nd amendment and the right to assemble are not terrorism.

hello OldGoat,

agreed, absolutely.

however, defying a court order by displaying resistance with lethal force against Americans who also happen to work for the Federal Government as they attempt to do their jobs is.

- IGIT

 

[OldGoat]

hello OldGoat,

agreed, absolutely.

however, defying a court order by displaying resistance with lethal force against Americans who also happen to work for the Federal Government as they attempt to do their jobs is.

- IGIT

I don't agree with your assessment. Otherwise anyone at any event that was in the presence of law enforcement in a vehicle or carrying a stick is a terrorist. Now I am sure that the totalitarian statists in the left would love to see the USA devolve into that point of view.

 

[IGIT]

I don't agree with your assessment. Otherwise anyone at any event that was in the presence of law enforcement in a vehicle or carrying a stick is a terrorist. Now I am sure that the totalitarian statists in the left would love to see the USA devolve into that point of view.

hi OldGoat,

well, as defined by the FBI;

Domestic terrorism

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics: Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

this definition was refined by conservatives in the Patriot Act;

Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism.

A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act ""dangerous to human life"" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.

i know it's possible that you have your own, personal definition of domestic terrorism, and i think that's terrific, but just using the bland facts, yeah, Bundy and his cohorts were domestic terrorists.

- IGIT

 

[OldGoat]

hi OldGoat,

well, as defined by the FBI;



this definition was refined by conservatives in the Patriot Act;



i know it's possible that you have your own, personal definition of domestic terrorism, and i think that's terrific, but just using the bland facts, yeah, Bundy and his cohorts were domestic terrorists.

- IGIT

Oh, the good ol' Patriot Act. I'm surprised you support fascism.

 

[IDL]

The patriot act was to empower government tyranny basically.

 

[OldGoat]

The patriot act was to empower government tyranny basically.

And it's disturbing to seeing seemingly reasonable and polite to fellow forumers people such as IGIT supporting it.

 

[IDL]

And it's disturbing to seeing seemingly reasonable and polite to fellow forumers people such as IGIT supporting it.

He may have been trying to make a different point, but yes pointing to the patriot act as a reference on how government should behave is exactly the point of the patriot act. "Look, it says right here they can kick your teeth in"

They write the laws for a reason, and it isn't to benefit the commoners.

 

[IGIT]

Oh, the good ol' Patriot Act. I'm surprised you support fascism.

hi OldGoat,

errr...i don't "support" anything, lol.

i'm citing the law. i don't pick and choose which laws count and which ones don't. is that what you're doing?

i repeat;

(i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion

Mr. Bundy's rights as a citizen were never challenged, and he availed himself an opportunity for justice in US Courts - and he lost there. he appealed...and lost again - and that's that.

you don't get to point guns at Americans who are only doing their constitutionally mandated jobs because you lost in court. that's not a right.

Mr. Bundy and his buddies are domestic terrorists.

- IGIT

 

[OldGoat]

He may have been trying to make a different point, but yes pointing to the patriot act as a reference on how government should behave is exactly the point of the patriot act. "Look, it says right here they can kick your teeth in"

They write the laws for a reason, and it isn't to benefit the commoners.

They ridicule your point of view quite often and denigrate you as a conspiracy theorist yet do they ever ask themselves how many genocides that CTers have committed vs how many genocides that governments composed of the powerful have committed? It's a shame that seemingly intelligent and well meaning people are so misled.

But perhaps that's the key. By making the power structure look benign and respectable the masses let their guards down.