Question about Sprints

[therealdope]

If I tried to run 200m at that kind of pace, the only thing I'd be asking for is CPR.

You're arguing with your shadow, man. I quoted the Wiki entry because that was a far as I cared to research into it. It's not even a form of training I use at the moment. My cardio is purely based on LISS, and I don't see that changing any time soon. I'm happy to defer to your obviously greater knowledge on this topic.

No worries. I'm ready to shut my trap on the topic.

 

[nhbfan8080]

Basically - yes. Speed work is the basis of running fast at just about any distances, including marathons. the dumbest thing recreational runners do is they just run slow and hope to run slightly faster each year. 31 minute 10k runners are really fast and it's not by accident, they do track workouts. Just consider that a world class 1500m runner can run a 51sec last 400m.
...........

I seriously doubt 'speed work' would be helpful much less the basis of running faster for anything above 10k. I'm quite certain speed work would be detrimental (by taking away time and recovery) for training full marathon distances since the anaerobic component for that distance is so tiny that it just doesn't make sense.

The proportion of aerobic/anaerobic energy system contributions for the various distances are about:
http://www.coachr.org/energy_system_contribution_in_tr.htm

3000m; 86% - 14%, 1500m; 77% - 23%, 800m; 60% - 40%, 400m; 47% - 59%, 200m; 28%-72% and 100m; 20% - 80% ​

So the 100m still uses 20% of the aerobic energy system.

http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/symp...nsen-Scott-Aerobic-Capacity-vs-Efficiency.pdf
The 10k is about 95%-5%. 5k is about 90-10 off the top of my head.

Speed work for half/full marathon training is race pace running and not the usual 800m yassos or 200m intervals.
5k/10k speed work is done only about once a week, and the structure of the whole training is certainly not based around a large proportion of 'speed workouts'.

 

[senri]

I seriously doubt 'speed work' would be helpful much less the basis of running faster for anything above 10k. I'm quite certain speed work would be detrimental (by taking away time and recovery) for training full marathon distances since the anaerobic component for that distance is so tiny that it just doesn't make sense.

The proportion of aerobic/anaerobic energy system contributions for the various distances are about:
http://www.coachr.org/energy_system_contribution_in_tr.htm

3000m; 86% - 14%, 1500m; 77% - 23%, 800m; 60% - 40%, 400m; 47% - 59%, 200m; 28%-72% and 100m; 20% - 80% ​

So the 100m still uses 20% of the aerobic energy system.

http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/symp...nsen-Scott-Aerobic-Capacity-vs-Efficiency.pdf
The 10k is about 95%-5%. 5k is about 90-10 off the top of my head.

Speed work for half/full marathon training is race pace running and not the usual 800m yassos or 200m intervals.
5k/10k speed work is done only about once a week, and the structure of the whole training is certainly not based around a large proportion of 'speed workouts'.

Speed work is done to enhance running mechanic economy in long distance runners. This makes it efficient for them to pace themselves accordingly in the latter end of the race where they can have an edge and improve their "kick". They don't do true speed work like sprinters do because they need all the resources to train long distance they also can't generate as much force to begin with due to their slow twitch muscle fibers. Nonetheless it still needs to be employed to break plateaus.

 

[Sano]

I seriously doubt 'speed work' would be helpful much less the basis of running faster for anything above 10k. I'm quite certain speed work would be detrimental (by taking away time and recovery) for training full marathon distances since the anaerobic component for that distance is so tiny that it just doesn't make sense.

The proportion of aerobic/anaerobic energy system contributions for the various distances are about:
http://www.coachr.org/energy_system_contribution_in_tr.htm

3000m; 86% - 14%, 1500m; 77% - 23%, 800m; 60% - 40%, 400m; 47% - 59%, 200m; 28%-72% and 100m; 20% - 80% ​

So the 100m still uses 20% of the aerobic energy system.

http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/symp...nsen-Scott-Aerobic-Capacity-vs-Efficiency.pdf
The 10k is about 95%-5%. 5k is about 90-10 off the top of my head.

Speed work for half/full marathon training is race pace running and not the usual 800m yassos or 200m intervals.
5k/10k speed work is done only about once a week, and the structure of the whole training is certainly not based around a large proportion of 'speed workouts'.

Very interesting stuff, thanks! You always have to take measurements like the energy expenditure with some sensible reservation (calculation of AOD, track athletes, mean results/SD instead of individual response and so on), but it's still a good effort, and a reasonable guideline. Just don't think it's always as black and white.

Seem like, according to the powerpoint presentation by Scott Christensen, that speed work during the Aerobic effeciency phase actually is maximal effort, and not race pace. Also the speed endurance workouts are goal pace, not race pace, which are very challenging!

Still, I'm always on board with aerobic capacity and efficiency training, and your point about speed work/maximal effort stuff being low on the list of priorities for a long distance runner stands. Especially for a regular person.

When you have the miles, the aerobic capacity, efficiency and aerobic treshold build over longer distances at race pace with sufficient recovery, then sprints work and HIT blocks pays off more, but they are still relatively sparsely used.

EDIT: Senri has a good point about mechanics and economy.

 

[therealdope]

I seriously doubt 'speed work' would be helpful much less the basis of running faster for anything above 10k.

Everyone who has run sub-30 for 10,000m -- never mind sub 27 --- has done significant time doing speed workout training on a track. Virtually all elite marathoners come from track background where speed workouts were a significant part of their training. Obviously once they switch to marathons they spend most of their training time doing high volume mileage but they don't give up speed work entirely; and they certainly rely on the speed work they developed on the track.

The WR for 10,000m is 25 consecutive 400s at 63 seconds. You don't think that requires speed work? The marathon WR is 4:41 mile pace which is 104 consecutive 400s at 70 seconds. Let that sink in.

 

[nhbfan8080]

Very interesting stuff, thanks! You always have to take measurements like the energy expenditure with some sensible reservation (calculation of AOD, track athletes, mean results/SD instead of individual response and so on), but it's still a good effort, and a reasonable guideline. Just don't think it's always as black and white.

Seem like, according to the powerpoint presentation by Scott Christensen, that speed work during the Aerobic effeciency phase actually is maximal effort, and not race pace. Also the speed endurance workouts are goal pace, not race pace, which are very challenging!

Still, I'm always on board with aerobic capacity and efficiency training, and your point about speed work/maximal effort stuff being low on the list of priorities for a long distance runner stands. Especially for a regular person.

When you have the miles, the aerobic capacity, efficiency and aerobic treshold build over longer distances at race pace with sufficient recovery, then sprints work and HIT blocks pays off more, but they are still relatively sparsely used.
EDIT: Senri has a good point about mechanics and economy.

Some athletes may be moving up or down in their distances so their workouts may vary quite abit but as pg 10 energy continuum shows, there is a marked changed at around the 5k distance where the targeted type of workouts change from aerobic capacity to efficiency. Pg 29/30 shows that the aerobic efficiency workout is more longish and less intense.

Most of the speedwork in the A.E. microcycle is not maximal effort - only Day 2. Day 1 VO2max is probably "aerobic intervals" as stated in pg29. Day 4 and 8 goal pace intervals aren't brutal as well - I imagine 6-8 mile/hour goal pace for 200-400m intervals for the serious-recreational 10k runner. What do you mean by goal pace not being the same as race pace?