Quentin Tarantino or Christopher Nolan?

[Peteyandjia]

Like Led Zeppelin nicking a few blues lines and 1-2 songs though I think Tarantino being derivative is an overstated criticism. The reality for me is that he isn't just recycling genre cinema he's drawing on but adding quite significantly to it, his films are significantly smarter and often better filmed as well.

Nah, they are both ripoff artists.

Don't get me wrong, I love Tarantino, one of my very favorites. I voted for him here. But his work is littered with sheer plagiarism.

 

[moreorless87]

Nah, they are both ripoff artists.

Don't get me wrong, I love Tarantino, one of my very favorites. I voted for him here. But his work is littered with sheer plagiarism.

You look at Led Zeppelin and really there are only a handful of tracks I would call questionable and there almost all on the first album, ripping off Bert Jansch's Black Waterside and Jake Holms I'm Confused but even with the second one the track mostly exists for the jam/solo in the middle that's entirely original. Besides that its mostly cover versions or the odd blues line taken, something like Whole Lotta Love is about 90% original with a reworked reference to WIllie Dixon's You Need Love in the chorus. Always seemed a weird nationalism at play there to me as if it was somehow ok for white americans to lift from the blues but not foreigners.

In Tarantino's case he basically lefts his basic setting and plot from exploitation cinema but creates characters and writes dialog that operate on a far higher level than is typical for that cinema. The films also generally look/sound superior to most(not all of course you have the likes of Leone) of what he's referencing. I just feel theres more originality present there than with Nolan who's films might arguably be more original in basic plotting but aren't really bringing anything fundamentally new to the table in terms of style.

Basically I'd say being able to pickup on obvious references and influences within someones work does not mean that a high level of originality isn't present as well.

 

[Peteyandjia]

You look at Led Zeppelin and really there are only a handful of tracks I would call questionable and there almost all on the first album, ripping off Bert Jansch's Black Waterside and Jake Holms I'm Confused but even with the second one the track mostly exists for the jam/solo in the middle that's entirely original. Besides that its mostly cover versions or the odd blues line taken, something like Whole Lotta Love is about 90% original with a reworked reference to WIllie Dixon's You Need Love in the chorus. Always seemed a weird nationalism at play there to me as if it was somehow ok for white americans to lift from the blues but not foreigners.

In Tarantino's case he basically lefts his basic setting and plot from exploitation cinema but creates characters and writes dialog that operate on a far higher level than is typical for that cinema. The films also generally look/sound superior to most(not all of course you have the likes of Leone) of what he's referencing. I just feel theres more originality present their than with Nolan who's films might arguably be more original in basic plotting but aren't really bringing anything fundamentally new to the table in terms of style.

Led Zeppelin's shameless ripoffs have been endlessly documented. To use a wholly original phrase I came up with all on my own: "It is known." You can go down the youtube rabbithole if you want to see how it's more than two songs.

Same with Tarantino. No offense but this really isn't even worth debating, it's like, his thing. I remember reading / seeing / talking about this with people back in the 90's, and he's still doing it today.

Give this a watch sometime - still holds up as a good little short film - and tell me you don't think it's absolutely shameless that the writer didn't get a credit on The Hateful Eight. You won't find one, or two, or three things that Tarantino stole. You will find like, 20. Including the story arc, characters, twists, etc.





And again, I love Tarantino. Your comparisons to Nolan are unnecessary, like I already said I voted for Tarantino. Adore his work. Just telling the truth here. He's a bigger thief in real life than Mr. Brown.

 

[moreorless87]

Led Zeppelin's shameless ripoffs have been endlessly documented. To use a wholly original phrase I came up with all on my own: "It is known." You can go down the youtube rabbithole if you want to see how it's more than two songs.

Again I think this has become rather an urban legend, a cliché that's been referenced so many times that people go along with it without really looking at the details. Your basically talking a couple of tracks on the debut album that could be considered really questionable in terms of taking a lot of what makes them up from someone else uncreditted and then a lot of blues references build into tracks that are actually very original. You listen to the Memphis Minnie version of When The Levee Breaks and then listen to Zep's version, almost totally different in terms of the riff, the tempo, the solo's etc.

There work is obviously heavily based on the blues/folk/etc in a wider sense with some refferences but to claim its based mostly on directly stealing ideas is I think highly questionable. The vast majority of it is actually original and indeed the overall style created from a merger of influences was pretty original(not alone of course with the likes of Jeff Beck around at the same time) as well.

Same with Tarantino. No offense but this really isn't even worth debating, it's like, his thing. I remember reading / seeing / talking about this with people back in the 90's, and he's still doing it today.

Give this a watch sometime - still holds up as a good little short film - and tell me you don't think it's absolutely shameless that the writer didn't get a credit on The Hateful Eight. You won't find one, or two, or three things that Tarantino stole. You will find like, 20. Including the story arc, characters, beats, etc.



And again, I love Tarantino. Your comparisons to Nolan are unnecessary, like I already said I voted for Tarantino. Adore his work. Just telling the truth here. He's a bigger thief in real life than Mr. Brown.

The legalities of writing credits though are not a judgement on the originality of a piece of work and in that respect The Hateful Eight bares much less similarity to The Rebel than say The Magnificent Severn does to The Seven Samurai, Tarantino's film takes some of the basic plot structure and arcs but introduces new characters and themes plus entirely original dialog. I'v no idea whether credit was due their in a legal sense or not but Tarantino's film is I think very clearly not just recycling its influence.

Indeed very often the nature of his films structure varieties wildly from the original influences, Pulp Fiction isn't really a crime thriller, Inglorious Basterds isn't really a Dirty Dozen style war thriller, etc and its actually the subversion of the existing influences that allow the films to function.

I think it stood out with Death Proof what Tarantino just directly updating pulp cinema with a higher budget and better actors would actually look like.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

I’m surprised to see Tarantino doing so well. While I know he’s popular I thought that a good chunk of Sherdoggers also found him overrated.

Anyway, I’m voting Nolan. While I really like Pulp Fiction, I like Batman Begins, the Prestige, Dark Knight And Inception all more than any of Tarantino’s other films other than Pulp Fiction.

Also, Deathproof kind of ruined Tarantino for me. All his movies have scenes of characters just talking about whatever. The dialogue is one of the things that people love about QT’s movies but Deathproof just took it to absolutely absurd levels with the scene of the women sitting and having breakfast or whatever. It was like 16 minutes straight of a grouo of bitches going on and on about TV shows or something. It was terrible.

 

[BEER]

Like Led Zeppelin nicking a few blues lines and 1-2 songs though I think Tarantino being derivative is an overstated criticism. The reality for me is that he isn't just recycling genre cinema he's drawing on but adding quite significantly to it, his films are significantly smarter and often better filmed as well.

LZ didn't steal 1 or 2 blues lines. They're stolen at least 10 songs outright lmao. Look it up.

 

[moreorless87]

LZ didn't steal 1 or 2 blues lines. They're stolen at least 10 songs outright lmao. Look it up.

List those 10 songs for me and it better not be something like Stairway to Heaven because the intro line was a bit similar to a Spirit song let alone cover versions.

 

[BEER]

List those 10 songs for me and it better not be something like Stairway to Heaven because the intro line was a bit similar to a Spirit song let alone cover versions.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/led-zeppelins-10-boldest-rip-offs-223419/

Those are ten songs that were stolen outright without giving credit to the original artists. Only after being outed or sued did future presses include proper credit and royalties to the originator or their families.

 

[moreorless87]

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/led-zeppelins-10-boldest-rip-offs-223419/

Those are ten songs that were stolen outright without giving credit to the original artists. Only after being outed or sued did future presses include proper credit and royalties to the originator or their families.

This is pretty much exactly what I was saying, look at the details of the claimed "stolen songs"...

Whole Lotta Love - Some of the lyrics based on Dixon, not the riff or the structure which are original hence Dixon only getting a co credit after legal action(actually from his label who swindled him out of the money).

Bring It On Home - Basically the bluesy intro is from Sonny Boy Williamson but the actual meat of the song in the loud rocky section is entirely original.

Since I'v Been Loving You - One line from a moby grape song, everything else original.

In My Time of Dying - Traditional gospel song so nothing wrong there plus of course a great deal that's entirely original about the arrangement.

So as I said really its the first album that's got some questionable stuff(although still a great deal that's original) on it although with Joan Baez I don't believe she ever actually registered her arrangement of that track. Its ironically a couple of enlgishmen in Jake Holmes and Bert Jansch who would really have reason to complain of outright theft.

 

[BEER]

This is pretty much exactly what I was saying, look at the details of the claimed "stolen songs"...

Whole Lotta Love - Some of the lyrics based on Dixon, not the riff or the structure which are original hence Dixon only getting a co credit after legal action(actually from his label who swindled him out of the money).

Bring It On Home - Basically the bluesy intro is from Sonny Boy Williamson but the actual meat of the song in the loud rocky section is entirely original.

Since I'v Been Loving You - One line from a moby grape song, everything else original.

In My Time of Dying - Traditional gospel song so nothing wrong there plus of course a great deal that's entirely original about the arrangement.

So as I said really its the first album that's got some questionable stuff(although still a great deal that's original) on it although with Joan Baez I don't believe she ever actually registered her arrangement of that track. Its ironically a couple of enlgishmen in Jake Holmes and Bert Jansch who would really have reason to complain of outright theft.

The biggest problem with LZ is how shitty they have been about it. I call it theft because they credit themselves as writing songs they didn't write, and it requires legal action for them to correct it. I'm not here to say LZ weren't talented musicians or never wrote good music. But they did steal quite a bit. In some cases, lyrics they didn't credit properly. Sometimes, just riffs and brief arrangements. Sometimes, entire songs. So while I can respect them as musicians and recognize what they did for rock music on the whole, I don't respect them as people.

 

[moreorless87]

The biggest problem with LZ is how shitty they have been about it. I call it theft because they credit themselves as writing songs they didn't write, and it requires legal action for them to correct it. I'm not here to say LZ weren't talented musicians or never wrote good music. But they did steal quite a bit. In some cases, lyrics they didn't credit properly. Sometimes, just riffs and brief arrangements. Sometimes, entire songs. So while I can respect them as musicians and recognize what they did for rock music on the whole, I don't respect them as people.

As I said though I think its really only the first album(and the Lemon Song) that includes much that could really be viewed as theft rather than small influences on original work and when that was released they were far from rich, Page was doing ok from the Yardbirds and Jones was a session guy whilst the other two were dirt poor. Plus of course its not like this kind of thing wasn't very common in that era, Zep was arguably the point were serious money started to be involved though.

I mean you can say in Page's favour that he was never shy to credit his band mates, Jones and Bonham have a load of writing credits and in the latters case especially were basically material that evolved from jamming. Compare that to say Waters in Pink Floyd sucking up as much credit as possible for coming up with a basic idea others worked on.

 

[BEER]

As I said though I think its really only the first album(and the Lemon Song) that includes much that could really be viewed as theft rather than small influences on original work and when that was released they were far from rich, Page was doing ok from the Yardbirds and Jones was a session guy whilst the other two were dirt poor.

I mean you can say in Page's favour that he was never shy to credit his band mates, Jones and Bonham have a load of writing credits and in the latters case especially were basically material that evolved from jamming. Compare that to say Waters in Pink Floyd sucking up as much credit as possible for coming up with a basic idea others worked on.

Giving credit to band members is cool, but not giving credit to artists he "borrowed" from is a real bullshit move.

That goes for every band that does it, not just LZ.

 

[moreorless87]

Giving credit to band members is cool, but not giving credit to artists he "borrowed" from is a real bullshit move.

That goes for every band that does it, not just LZ.

Again I think your really looking at a culture where it was pretty common, I mean theres an absolute shedload of blues/RnB that lifts elements from other tracks and it followed over into whiteboys playing it in the mid 60's, Zep stands out I'd say because they were the point were things really took off but actually from Led Zep 2 onwards there very little I would call "theft", tracks that depend on stolen elements for their main appeal ala say Coldplay lifting the main hook for Viva La Vida from Satriani.

 

[Thai Domi]

Tarantino is the only director out there whose movies I would pay to go see without knowing anything else about the film other than who directed it.

 

[Peteyandjia]

The Hateful Eight bares much less similarity to The Rebel than say The Magnificent Severn does to The Seven Samurai,

... Did you actually watch the entire episode of The Rebel I posted? It seems strange you would say this, if you did. Hateful 8 is a direct ripoff, right down to the specific twists.

 

[dog y]

Nolan.
I Dont, never have, never will like Tarantino.

 

[HHJ]

basement bar scene with August Diehl looking to catch Fassbender in a lie.

This exchange was masterfully done. Every frame is beautiful. Every word,poetry

 

[moreorless87]

... Did you actually watch the entire episode of The Rebel I posted? It seems strange you would say this, if you did. Hateful 8 is a direct ripoff, right down to the specific twists.

Yes I have quite awhile ago and whilst he takes the basic setup and the twist with the poison from it ultimately its much less similar to the original than the Magnificent Seven is, all the racial/civil war elements(which is really what the film ends up being about) aren't present and the climax is totally different.

 

[minute bull]

Don't get me wrong, I love Tarantino, one of my very favorites. I voted for him here. But his work is littered with sheer plagiarism.

Your point?

We both know THE DARK KNIGHT is influenced by HEAT, and you've probably heard that INCEPTION is inspired by PAPRIKA and we don't have to get into the Scrooge McDuck...tale. DUNKIRK is essentially BATTLESHIP POTEMKIN.

Claims of plagiarism/homage? Again:

Spoiler: PS

 

[benebox]

They are both great, however if I had to choose only one of thier next 5 films to watch then I would pick Nolan. QT is way past his prime and getting a little predictable and repetitive.