Putin makes Holocaust denial a criminal offence punishable by up to five years in jail.

[abiG]

Holocaust denial is obviously stupid, but people have already gone to jail in supposed free countries for this.

I am not a huge wiki fan, but:

September 1987, June 1999, April 2016 Jean-Marie Le Pen France, Germany fines of €183,000 (1987), €6,000 (1999)[72] and €30,000 (2016)[73]

Feb. 27, 1998 Roger Garaudy France 6 months' imprisonment (suspended), ₣240,000 (€37,500) fine[74]

Jul. 21, 1998 Jürgen Graf Switzerland 15 months' imprisonment (fled Switzerland to avoid sentence)[75]

Jul. 21, 1998 Gerhard Förster Switzerland 12 months' imprisonment, disgorgement[76]

April 8, 1999 Fredrick Töben Australia 7 months' imprisonment Mannheim, Germany – retrial – 2011 indefinitely stayed by judge Dr Meinerzhagen. October 1 – November 19, 2008, London, extradition to Mannheim, Germany, on European Arrest Warrant issued by Germany, failed. August 15 – November 12, 2009, Adelaide, Australia – for contempt of court because he refused to stop questioning the Holocaust's 3 basics: 6 million, systematic state extermination, gas chambers as murder weapon.

May 27, 1999 Jean Plantin France 6 months' imprisonment (suspended), fine, damages[77]

Apr. 11, 2000 Gaston-Armand Amaudruz Switzerland 1 year's imprisonment, damages[78]

Feb. 20, 2006 David Irving Austria 3 years' imprisonment.[79] Released and deported after serving 13 months.

Mar. 15, 2006 Germar Rudolf Germany 2½ years' imprisonment[80]

Oct. 3, 2006 Robert Faurisson France €7,500 fine, 3 months' probation[81]

Feb. 15, 2007 Ernst Zündel Germany 5 years' imprisonment[82]

Nov. 8, 2007 Vincent Reynouard France 1 year's imprisonment and a fine of 10,000 euros[83]

Jan. 14, 2008 Wolfgang Fröhlich Austria 6 years' imprisonment (third offence)[84]

Jan. 15, 2008 Sylvia Stolz Germany 3½ years' imprisonment[85]

Mar. 11, 2009 Horst Mahler Germany 5 years' imprisonment[86]

Oct. 23, 2009 Dirk Zimmerman Germany 9 months' imprisonment[87]

Oct. 27, 2009 Richard Williamson Germany €12,000 fine[88] (later overturned)[citation needed]

Jan. 31, 2013 Gyorgy Nagy Hungary 18-month suspended jail sentence[89]

Feb. 11, 2015 Vincent Reynouard France 2 years' imprisonment[90]

Nov. 12, 2015 Ursula Haverbeck Germany 10 months' imprisonment[91]

Madness... and I am saying this as a Jew. This is a classic example of people being locked up for what they believe... a real thought crime. I had no idea.

Are there any other parts of history that cannot be questioned in free countries or on sherdog?

 

[gspieler]

You guys arguing about the number of dead from the Holocaust do realize the thread topic is about whether or not it should be considered a crime to deny it, right?

 

[Trotsky]

Holocaust denial is obviously stupid, but people have already gone to jail in supposed free countries for this.

I am not a huge wiki fan, but:

September 1987, June 1999, April 2016 Jean-Marie Le Pen France, Germany fines of €183,000 (1987), €6,000 (1999)[72] and €30,000 (2016)[73]

Feb. 27, 1998 Roger Garaudy France 6 months' imprisonment (suspended), ₣240,000 (€37,500) fine[74]

Jul. 21, 1998 Jürgen Graf Switzerland 15 months' imprisonment (fled Switzerland to avoid sentence)[75]

Jul. 21, 1998 Gerhard Förster Switzerland 12 months' imprisonment, disgorgement[76]

April 8, 1999 Fredrick Töben Australia 7 months' imprisonment Mannheim, Germany – retrial – 2011 indefinitely stayed by judge Dr Meinerzhagen. October 1 – November 19, 2008, London, extradition to Mannheim, Germany, on European Arrest Warrant issued by Germany, failed. August 15 – November 12, 2009, Adelaide, Australia – for contempt of court because he refused to stop questioning the Holocaust's 3 basics: 6 million, systematic state extermination, gas chambers as murder weapon.

May 27, 1999 Jean Plantin France 6 months' imprisonment (suspended), fine, damages[77]

Apr. 11, 2000 Gaston-Armand Amaudruz Switzerland 1 year's imprisonment, damages[78]

Feb. 20, 2006 David Irving Austria 3 years' imprisonment.[79] Released and deported after serving 13 months.

Mar. 15, 2006 Germar Rudolf Germany 2½ years' imprisonment[80]

Oct. 3, 2006 Robert Faurisson France €7,500 fine, 3 months' probation[81]

Feb. 15, 2007 Ernst Zündel Germany 5 years' imprisonment[82]

Nov. 8, 2007 Vincent Reynouard France 1 year's imprisonment and a fine of 10,000 euros[83]

Jan. 14, 2008 Wolfgang Fröhlich Austria 6 years' imprisonment (third offence)[84]

Jan. 15, 2008 Sylvia Stolz Germany 3½ years' imprisonment[85]

Mar. 11, 2009 Horst Mahler Germany 5 years' imprisonment[86]

Oct. 23, 2009 Dirk Zimmerman Germany 9 months' imprisonment[87]

Oct. 27, 2009 Richard Williamson Germany €12,000 fine[88] (later overturned)[citation needed]

Jan. 31, 2013 Gyorgy Nagy Hungary 18-month suspended jail sentence[89]

Feb. 11, 2015 Vincent Reynouard France 2 years' imprisonment[90]

Nov. 12, 2015 Ursula Haverbeck Germany 10 months' imprisonment[91]

Madness... and I am saying this as a Jew. This is a classic example of people being locked up for what they believe... a real thought crime. I had no idea.

Are there any other parts of history that cannot be questioned in free countries or on sherdog?

You can understand why it's taken more seriously in France and, especially, Germany, right?

 

[IDL]

You guys arguing about the number of dead from the Holocaust do realize the thread topic is about whether or not it should be considered a crime to deny it, right?

That is the problem though. People conflate debating details with 'denial' which just shuts it all down. It in't even clear what denial means.

 

[Rematch]

Did you really need to be told that there is no legit easily obtained single document that exposes the holocaust as a myth?

Hmmmm indeed.

Do you really need to be so presumptuous?

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

I voted yes mainly because I'm sick of this topic and the associated Jewish conspiracy bs

 

[Deleted member 185048]

Modern Neo-Nazis are social outcasts who are just excited to finally feel like they are a part of something.

Haha! Just like the far lefties!

 

[Son of Jamin]

I deny the Rwandan genocide/holocaust. What time do I get?

 

[The ScorpioN]

In short, there are a lot of Russian nationalistic reasons to oppose Holocaust denial, and they play into Putin's brand pragmatic pandering. No Russian wants to think that they lost 10 million countrymen fighting a hoax. Hope that helped.

I don't know about the rest of the post, but this in particular is nonsense.

The Soviets weren't fighting for the Jews who were being exterminated, as your line that "they lost 10 mill countrymen fighting a hoax" implies. They had a pact with Germany to stay out of each other's way. You seem to be assigning some moral virtue to the Soviet Union.

Whether it was actually 6 million dead, or a Jewish conspiracy to rule the dumb goyim, German tanks entering your territory and mowing down your villages is most definitely not a hoax. Russian pride in repelling the Fascists would stand regardless of Holocaust denial.

 

[Gandhi]

That is the problem though. People conflate debating details with 'denial' which just shuts it all down. It in't even clear what denial means.

250k vs millions is not a detail, it's clear what denial means in that context.

 

[IDL]

250k vs millions is not a detail, it's clear what denial means in that context.

So where is the cutoff then? 250K is still no small number, but is certainly much smaller than the popular claim of 6 million. But what if someone thinks it is like 1 million or 2 million?

Then still, if someone thinks it is 250K you have to wonder then is this a criminal offense to think that.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Huh I didn't really expect a law like that to get passed in Russia like that at this point in time, it seems random. Like obviously I can see Putin clamping down on free speech but I didn't think it would be for this, maybe (probably) it's a smaller part of an overall strategy. But it's not like I exactly have my finger on the pulse of what's going on over there.

I didn't vote in the poll because I'm not American so it's not my place to say. But as far as if I agree with laws like this in general, the answer is HELL NO. Can you imagine people facing criminal charges for voicing the opinion that 9/11 was an inside job? It would be insane. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, something like holocaust denial should be out in the open where it can be challenged and defeated. I mean talk about fuel for the fire of far-right CTs about Jews. It seems pretty natural to me that if the state literally says that they'll send men with guns to come lock you in a cage if you question something, in your mind at least you start to question it.

 

[Trotsky]

I don't know about the rest of the post, but this in particular is nonsense.

No, it's not.

The Soviets weren't fighting for the Jews who were being exterminated, as your line that "they lost 10 mill countrymen fighting a hoax" implies. They had a pact with Germany to stay out of each others way. You seem to be assigning some moral virtue to the Soviet Union. Whether it was actually 6 million dead, or a Jewish conspiracy to rule the dumb goyim, German tanks entering your territory and mowing down your villages is most definitely not a hoax.

Of course the Soviets didn't enter the war because of Jewish internment: neither did the United States, but US citizens still regard the US's entry into WWII as a crusade against the evil exemplified by genocide. The reality of actual primary purposes doesn't change the optics of retrospection. Playing up the evil of the Nazi regime plays up the heroism of the Red Army in toppling it.

Russian pride in repelling the Fascists would stand regardless of Holocaust denial.

It is absolutely nonsensical, even if you're to be deliberately ignorant to the importance of Russian Jews in carrying out the Russian Revolution and the effect on Soviet-era Russian morale post Cold War, to think that any of the veterans Allied forces wouldn't be offended to have the crimes of the Nazis be underplayed.

Really, your position is inexcusably daft.

 

[Gandhi]

You've been citing to a Wikipedia page that has already been fleshed out to deny your claims.

I get that the absence of definitive proof grants justifiable suspicion, but it doesn't make for a persuasive argument to the contrary.

I think it's fairly safe to say that at least 3 million German and Polish Jews died in the Holocaust, not counting another million of Russian Jewish fighters. I haven't seen persuasive argument that would suggest anything less than 4 million as an estimate floor.

He is only going to accept cherry picked evidence that supports his side. He has a paper that says X, never mind all the evidence that points to Y or the fact that the originators of said paper don't agree with his interpretation of X.

 

[Trotsky]

He is only going to accept cherry picked evidence that supports his side. He has a paper that says X, never mind all the evidence that points to Y or the fact that the originators of said paper don't agree with his interpretation of X.

I'm perfectly amenable to the claim that the numbers in political discourse are inflated, and I would appreciate valid sources to that contention, but yeah, he hasn't made a strong argument.

Further, I never understand the utility in Holocaust denialism, especially since the right overwhelmingly supports Israel, which persists on Holocaust remembrance.

 

[Trotsky]

Huh I didn't really expect a law like that to get passed in Russia like that at this point in time, it seems random. Like obviously I can see Putin clamping down on free speech but I didn't think it would be for this, maybe (probably) it's a smaller part of an overall strategy. But it's not like I exactly have my finger on the pulse of what's going on over there.

See my earlier post re Russian nationalism. Putin, for all his inadequacies, is a brilliant politician in terms of nationalist posturing and I have little doubt this will be well-received with his base as are most his policies.

 

[welcometohavoc]

I have always been a free speech advocate, especially regarding political speech. I don't see a need for these laws. I think they are stupid. I mean, if someone wants to claim the Holocaust never happened, what's the big deal? You can just tell them they are ridiculous and move on.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-denial-of-nazi-crimes-idUSBREA440IV20140505

Has Putin done the right thing? Should we have laws like this in America?

Thought police. Sounds like something Britain would do

 

[Gandhi]

So where is the cutoff then? 250K is still no small number, but is certainly much smaller than the popular claim of 6 million. But what if someone thinks it is like 1 million or 2 million?

Then still, if someone thinks it is 250K you have to wonder then is this a criminal offense to think that.

I never said it was criminal, it makes one an asshole however.

And the question is intellectually dishonest. As if there is a magic number that transforms genuine historical research into an anti Jewish narrative. Without giving an exact number to define a line, when cherry picking evidence to say it's 1/24 of the consensus number, claim the intent was deportation or free labor as opposed to extermination, and make the obv inference that it's all being done to support Jewish political goals, you are on the wrong fn side of it.

It's not that hard.

 

[welcometohavoc]

Yes, pointing out the fact that the number of Jews massacred more than doubled over the space of 30 years is classed as holocaust denial. WW2 guilt trumps everything including facts. I mean, they got a free country out of it, what else do they want?

The fact the number doubled is a result of further research and uncovering of new evidence. It's quite normal for numbers to fluctuate over time as can be seen in the Soviet famine, Pol Pot's genocide, etc

My problem isn't necessarily that people disagree with the number, my problem is people thinking that adding or subtracting a few million changes anything. It was still a targeted and systematic eradication of an entire people. Whether it's 500,000 or 500,000,000 doesn't change it's moral position

 

[IDL]

I never said it was criminal, it makes one an asshole however.

And the question is intellectually dishonest. As if there is a magic number that transforms genuine historical research into an anti Jewish narrative. Without giving an exact number to define a line, when cherry picking evidence to say it's 1/24 of the consensus number, claim the intent was deportation or free labor as opposed to extermination, and make the obv inference that it's all being done to support Jewish political goals, you are on the wrong fn side of it.

It's not that hard.

No I know you never said it was criminal, and I don't think you would want it to be. Was just a comment relating to the context of the thread.

Thinking someone is a dick for thinking something is fine.

But, in the context of 'denialism' it's still a pertinent question as to what that means. If someone believed that the numbers were boosted to further the claim to Israel and support Zionism as a movement, say, then for some people that is immediately put into the denial category and is basically viewed as a thought crime, so it will remain off limits. As to the idea that it didn't happen at all, well yeah that is a pretty bold position.