Protesters march to Durham, topple confederate monument

Do you support those on the left that destroy State Confederate monuments?


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No, Northern politicians promised to follow those laws, which they failed to deliver on.

There was also the ridiculously high tariffs on exported goods that handcuffed the South and forced them to use Northern industry.

Also the argument over slave/feee states being added westward.

Like I said, regardless of how we feel about the institution of slavery, it was protected by law, so the Southern states had every right to be protected by the law.

The first state to threaten to secede over tariffs was South Carolina in 31' - 33' and a southern president, Jackson, slapped them down and they got no support from a a single other southern state.

The newer 1857 tariff leading up the war was written by Virginian slaveholder and was welcomed by southern members of congress because it brought a record-low rate. Thus, at the time of war, Southerners had no real reason to complain. A slave owner in the south could export his cotton to Europe at the lowest tariff rate since 1816.
 
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Anyone who deliberately breaks the law violently deserves whatever consequences fall on them....

Absolutely. You should always be ready to accept the consequences of your actions.

But if you want to pretend like violent or criminal revolution hasn't been that catalyst for most great social and political change then I'd say you're not paying attention to history. Obviously I'm not condoning violence. I think you should truly exhaust all political and social means to enact change before you'd ever resort to violence. I don't think we really have any issues that severe in America right now. If some Nazi or KKK bitch got in my face, I'd probably take that misdemeanor assault charge. And I'm all for ripping down some of those disgusting statues. I don't think it needs to come down to riots or fighting police to do it.

Civil disobedience though man. That's part of your commitment as a citizen of your country. You should also vote. Half these idiots out in the streets don't even bother to vote in their local/state elections. Our voter turnout is insanely low.
 
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I have no issues with the removal of statues

I have no issues with people WANTING them removed

The problem I have in Durham is HOW it was removed. It reminds me too much of those vids we see out of Iraq with ISIS in a museum or the Taliban in Afghanistan blowing up those giant Buddha statues.
 
Absolutely. You should always be ready to accept the consequences of your actions.

But if you want to pretend like violent or criminal revolution hasn't been that catalyst for most great social and political change then I'd say you're not paying attention to history. Obviously I'm not condoning violence. I think you rigid truly exhaust all political and social means to enact change before you'd ever resort to violence. I don't think we really have any issues that severe in America right now. If some Nazi or KKK bitch got in my face, I'd probably take that misdemeanor assault charge. And I'm all for ripping down some of those disgusting statues. I don't think it needs to come down to riots or fighting police to do it.

Civil disobedience though man. That's part of your commitment as a citizen of your country. You should also vote. Half these idiots out in the streets don't even bother to vote in their local/state elections. Our voter turnout is insanely low.
Why vote and actually participate, when you can just get violent and loot and destroy? Voting takes thinking.
 
This is another good read.



freedmenspatrolModerator | Antebellum U.S. Slavery Politics 19 points20 points21 points 2 years ago* (2 children)


I can't comment on the bounds of acceptable scholarship, but I don't know that the facts support the position. Others may disagree, but this is how I see it:

The theory of states' rights, as usually advanced, was something like the idea that every state should have the sovereign right to decide its domestic institutions as it saw fit. That right could never be sovereign if the federal government had the authority to intervene and overrule such state determinations. There are many different interpretations of how far that should go and what remedies a state could have if its sovereignty was abridged, as well as at what point new states acquired that sovereignty, but I think that fairly states the central idea.

People in the past, like people today, said a lot of things. Words are cheap. Actions cost us more dearly. People disagree over how to weigh the two in comparison, but I think it's fair to look at both but weigh the latter more heavily.

If slavery was an example of states' rights, then the men who advocated for its protection believed in the antithesis of states' rights. They spent the decade before the war inventing more and more extreme ways to safeguard slavery at the expense of local autonomy on every front. This included, in Virginia's case, actively pursuing a lawsuit (Lemmon vs. New York) that had at least the potential to render the notion of a free state legally impossible, just as Dred Scott v. Sandford had rendered free territories legally impossible. The two cases were eerily similar, both dealing with slaves brought into a free jurisdiction apparently freed by its laws. Both directly challenged the legitimacy of the laws under which the emancipation occurred. In the Lemmon case, Virginia argued that New York's law prohibiting the import of slaves violated the Commerce Clause. This at least implied that had the Supreme Court sided with Virginia, it would be legal thereafter for people to go into New York and any other "free" state and go so far as setting up an actual slave market and holding auctions. But Virginia saw opportunity to try the issue on the battlefield rather than in the courts and proceeded to do so.

The same pattern plays itself out in the case of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. In the 1842, Prigg v. Pennsylvania's held that slaveholders pursuing slaves who stole their bodies from their lawful owners had the right to cross state lines to recover their human property. That's right in the fugitive slave clause of the Constitution. But Prigg also held that states did not have to help the slaveholder do so. This resulted in a flurry of personal liberty laws which granted accused runaways various rights to challenge their rendition. Practically, this was a decisive states' rights decision and the states exercised their sovereignty through those grants to runaways, provisions barring the use of state jails and the involvement of state officials in renditions, etc. That exercise of sovereignty so exercised the allegedly states rights southerners that as part of the Compromise of 1850 they secured the aforementioned law to override it. Not only did the Fugitive Slave Act overrule state laws, it went a step further and essentially set up an ersatz draft of any and all northerners into impromptu slave catching bands. You could be deputized on the spot as a person ran past you and required to aid in his or her capture, under penalty of severe fines. The law also made concealing and aiding fugitives a federal offense.

Plenty of white northerners didn't like that, in principle, but could live with it. Some, however, would not. They risked the penalties and went so far as to rescue fugitive slaves by mob violence, most famously from Boston where the failed rescue of Anthony Burns resulted the death of a deputy US Marshal. Burns' case is actually late in the game so far as resisting the Fugitive Slave Act goes, but his rendition involved a great expense and calling up the army and Massachusetts militia to maintain order while he was marched out to a revenue cutter and taken back into slavery. Before his 1854 rescue, other cases in Boston and down in Pennsylvania had provoked southern accusations of treason on the part of the resistance. One would not expect this behavior of people who believed in the right of local authorities to resist federal impositions, most especially not on the vital issue of what labor system a state should adopt...unless the only vital issue was that they adopt, or at least go out of their way to facilitate, slavery. Why, after all, should it be Massachusetts' or Pennsylvania's job, and the job of their citizens, to preserve the slavery of Virginia or Maryland?

Burns' case resulted, in part thanks to its timing with another issue I'll get to in a moment, in widespread resistance to the Fugitive Slave Act across the North. This effectively nullified it. Southerners did not forgive and forget and the North's failure to act as slave catchers on demand figured into the statements of grievances that the seceding states made in 1860-1.

At the same time as Anthony Burns' case came to national attention in Boston, Franklin Pierce was putting his name to the Kansas-Nebraska Act. This repealed the Missouri Compromise's ban on slavery in essentially all the land between the tier of states immediately west of the Mississippi and east to the Rockies, from the southern line of Missouri up to the Canadian border. For thirty years, that federal enactment had barred slavery from all the land save the territory of Missouri itself. That repeal sounds like a decision in favor of local autonomy. The man who initiated the repeal proposal, Kentucky's Archibald Dixon**, defended it on those grounds. Congress always made a mess of these things, so let the locals decide. States' rights men were happy and would even spot incipient states, in the form of just-organized territories like Kansas, the sovereignty to decide for or against slavery. Or so they said.

The Kansas locals might very well have decided for slavery. Most of them came lately from Missouri, after all. But Missouri's most enslaved area directly abutted the border and its slaveholders did not care for risking a safe haven for absconded slaves in their neighborhood. They came over and fraudulently voted in Kansas' elections in the thousands, in a territory that only had a few thousand legal voters. They came armed and well-lubricated, even toting along cannons, led by no less than just former Senator (and instrumental figure in getting the Kansas-Nebraska Act to its final, proslavery form) David Rice Atchison. They threatened violence against people who contested their "right" to vote illegally and proceeded to carry it out in several cases. In one district, they burst into the polling place and told the election workers that they must let everyone vote without question (The judges of election had the right to question voters under oath to ensure they were entitled to vote in Kansas.) and without swearing any oaths. They have five minutes to decide, but if they decided against complying, they were dead men.

The House sent out a committee to investigate this mess a year later and they ruled that from its inception, the government of Kansas had been dominated and controlled by Missourian proslavery men. This extended even to the point of their forcing local Kansan proslavery men to set aside their chosen proslavery candidates for office and vote for men chosen by the Missourians. Local autonomy? Not so much. They wanted a slave territory that would become and remain a slave state. With their control of the legislature, they set about doing it by criminalizing essentially any act of antislavery politics up to and including debating over whether or not slavery could or should exist within Kansas.

Kansas wasn't then a state, but it got states' rights. In fact, it was entitled to them right up to, and no further than, the right to have slavery, whether wanted or not, good and hard. I think it's a good microcosm for the whole issue. The violation of white male republicanism (many didn't care that much about the slaves in themselves, but about the threat slavery posed to their freedoms as white men) there certainly gave a lesson to white northerners elsewhere about just what a future in a Union half slave and half free might look like. That free half would exist on paper, maybe, but may soon no longer extend into any reality.

In 1860, the dispute that split the Democratic party and thus gave Abraham Lincoln the Presidency is a particularly telling one. Southern radicals insisted that the party platform, which actually meant something in those days, must include a call for a federal slave code to apply in the territories. The northern Democrats refused and the sides could not reconcile. If they really believed in local autonomy, then why did they insist upon imposing slavery upon future states and then demanding if they wanted it gone, they must vote it out after it had been established in their bounds?

I think that if one wants to parse things very finely, one could say that secession was the proximate cause of the Civil War. But the preservation of slavery was the cause of secession.

**NB: Stephen Douglas (D-IL) wrote the bill, but it saw tremendous revision by others to win southern support. Douglas went along with all that, but his original version kept the Missouri Compromise more or less intact.
 
Why vote and actually participate, when you can just get violent and loot and destroy? Voting takes thinking.

That seems to be the case for a lot of angry people. It really says something when you can put all this time and energy into protesting or rioting but you can't put in thirty minutes once every year or so to pick someone who shares your values.

It wouldn't surprise me if 9/10 people couldn't tell me when their town hall meetings are.
 
Here's a good read on the history of Nullification.

freedmenspatrolModerator | Antebellum U.S. Slavery Politics 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago* (0 children)


To some degree nullification was at odds with secession, as it's a strategy for a minority to protect itself within a hostile nation. Secession, of course, is about blowing the joint and daring the rest to stop you. The two did come together, however, in that theorists like John C. Calhoun held that nullification could be appealed to a constitutional convention. But if that convention found against the nullification, the nullifiers could secede.

South Carolina's first practical act of nullification, as it happens, had everything to do with slavery. This is a bit obscure, so forgive a short prologue. The 1820s came in with the Missouri crisis (over the proposal to let Missouri into the Union if and only if slavery was set on a road to ultimate extinction there) It presented the first time that antislavery politics had really gone national and came in quick succession with efforts of the American Colonization Society (Their Plan: deport the slaves to Africa.) to secure some kind of federal support. That looked dangerously like a pathway to compensated emancipation. Previous antislavery efforts were focused on moral persuasion of individual slaveholders and state-level efforts, like those which had given every northern state graduated emancipation plans by 1804. Proslavery southerners didn't love any of those alone, but together they look like the world turning against the Slave Power.

Add on top the Panic of 1819 and resulting depression. Further north, even further north in the slave states, planters could switch to a barter system, plant their own wheat, etc to get by through hard times. They had the option to reduce their involvement in the broader market to weather the storm. South Carolina, where the cotton boom first hit, had a very different situation. The Carolina planters had expanded massively in the upcountry since the invention of the cotton gin made it profitable to do so. That took capital that they did not have and so had borrowed. Thus they could not turtle up, economically, and wait for the sun to shine on them once more. They had bankers coming for payment. To make their financial agony especially exquisite, cotton prices took a dive. Bad weather and lower margins still on Carolina's other staple crop, lowcountry rice, put everyone in a tight bind.

But wait, there's more. There's been some dispute in recent years over just what, if anything, there really was to the Denmark Vesey slave revolt conspiracy. I'm not qualified to comment on that controversy, but the important part for our purposes is that the slaveholders believed it. The conspiracy blew up in and around Charleston in 1822. The leader, Denmark Vesey, was a former slave working in Charleston at the time. He had briefly been in Haiti and the Haitian Revolution's example scared the daylights out of white slaveholders. They imagined that Vesey proposed to bring the Haitian Revolution to their shores, killing every white person he and his people could reach. Once they took guns from the city's arsenal, they would arm field slaves from the hinterland and general disaster would ensue. One of Vesey's lieutenants confessed that the conspirators tried to reach out to the Haitian government via black sailors. To tie these disparate events together a bit, some witnesses claimed inspiration also from remarks made in favor of keeping slavery out of Missouri during the debates over its admission.

Put all of this together and you get many buildings' worth of bricks deposited in the chamber pots. Whatever their protests to the contrary, slaveholders didn't always sleep easy even in the best of times. Clearly they had to do something and quitting slavery was out of the question. They had far too much of their money and their personal identities invested. Thus South Carolina passed the Negro Seaman Act. This required that all black sailors passing through Charleston, then a relatively busy port, free and slave alike, spend their time in the city inside a jail cell. Clearly, the slaves in South Carolina got their ideas from such fell influences.

Aside the obvious, to us, human rights issue this law violated treaties between the United States and the United Kingdom which granted both nations' sailors free access to one another's ports. The British protested. Per the Constitution, treaties were supreme over state law. A Supreme Court justice, from South Carolina no less, gave a circuit ruling (at the time, they traveled around heading circuit courts in addition to having sessions in Washington as a group) to that effect. The Carolinians kept jailing seamen all the same. The Carolina Senate insisted that this was a matter of self-preservation and trumped all laws and treaties to the contrary. Washington opted not to press matters further.

That didn't do all that much to ameliorate the panic in the state, what with the depression still on and all, but it did teach the Carolina radicals a lesson: if they dared, the nation would blink. Between hard times' persistence, that as ground zero for the cotton boom Carolina got planted and planted again to exhaustion, the state's inconveniently small size, and virgin lands opening up (at the expense of the Native Americans) just to the Southwest, those who could quit the state and took their slaves with them in worryingly large numbers. With all these calamities besetting South Carolina, her white elites decided they should put that lesson to use as, somehow, the federal tariff had to be at fault. Why?

Well...slavery. The protectionists of the era argued that, long term, a high tariff would generate domestic production of manufactured goods. This would create American jobs, since imported goods would naturally cost more. South Carolinians in the 1820s did not consider themselves to have the luxury of taking the long view. Furthermore, they didn't really need jobs like more northerly states did. They had slaves. Most of those slaves did agricultural labor on large plantations and so enriched (or should be enriching) their white owners. If you wanted to make it big in Carolina, you bought land and slaves to work it, rather than building a factory. Furthermore, they believed that the high tariff suppressed demand for cotton. The tariff, so they imagined, was just money right out of their already tight margins. They were drowning in red ink and the Yankees wanted to pour more on top, stealing cotton right out of their barns.

There are lots of problems with the simple theory, not the least of which is that Americans would need blankets and other cotton goods at most any price and that by far most of the tariff was collected in New York City's docks rather than Charleston's, but they believed it. They couldn't blame their exhausted soil, their small state, competition with virgin lands elsewhere, or a rather cavalier attitude toward keeping the books (The fashion was to live like gentry who didn't need to worry about money, facts be damned.) It had to be the diabolical tax man stealing into the barn at night and making off with their bales. That the tariff kept going up further made it an attractive scapegoat on which they could try their theory for surviving and preserving themselves in a nation that now seemed aligned against them.

When the Tariff of Abominations, as they called it, jacked the rate to 50%, it was time to flex the might of the minority against the majority. The Vice-President, John C. Calhoun, blazed new ground in states' rights ideology. Before his Exposition and Protest, most states' rights types relied on the Supreme Court to strike down laws that exceeded the authority of the national government. But that Court got its members named by the majority's President and confirmed by the majority's Senate. That would not do. Instead Calhoun placed individual state conventions as the ultimate authority, within their bounds absolutely sovereign.

There was a lot of back and forth over the details here, but they can't obscure the central fact: Calhoun was called upon by his fellow Carolina slaveholders to save Carolina slavery. The Nullification Crisis was all about that, a fact not missed by Calhoun's one-time running mate and latter-day adversary, Andrew Jackson. Nor did Calhoun deny it himself. William Freehling goes into it a bit in his Road to Disunion, Volume One, from which I've drawn much of this:

The same old-fashioned [eighteenth century political] assumptions lay behind Calhoun's answer to another criticism of his theory: that by protecting white slaveholders from majority attack, he would consolidate black enslavement. Calhoun rejoiced in that charge. He hoped state nullification would stop the federal government from overturning the social hierarchy. Blacks had no right to a freedom that would Africanize America. Property-less whites had no right to tax away gentlemen's property. The upper class had every right to veto the lower. Good paternalism must provide good government for all races.

Then Andrew Jackson's government did not blink as expected.

Paternalism was how slaveholders fancied their relationship to their human property, incidentally. As the antebellum period wore on, Northerners took more and more interest in just what that might mean for them. They didn't like it.

The short version: Nullification theory was developed and practiced as a reaction to increasing pressures on slavery, both real and perceived, on the political and economic stages as informed by the peculiarities of the situation in Carolina at the time. I thus don't think we can consider either the nullification crisis or the tariff taken up as the casus belli for it as unrelated to slavery at all. The other slave states did not rise up with the Carolina radicals then, but they didn't have the same pressures upon them either. Things looked very different to most of them in 1860-1. There the ones who didn't follow Carolina out, and the ones who took their time about it, again had different circumstances.
 
I don't condone breaking the law and I am a bootlicker? Are you retarded?Rhetorical question never mind.
You liberals are batshit insane.....

You are the same person who 60 years ago would have been like "black people can't go to school with us it against the law!" What makes you a bootlicker is if the law tells you to do something even though you know it is not right you do it because you have no brain to think for yourself, youre a bootlicker, a pussy. Had the founding fathers had your mentality this country would have never been.
 
Why vandalize the monuments? Ship them to me, I'll display them on private land.
 
Sorry about the multi-quotes, but it's a long thread and I've been busy. I voted No but with a massive *. More on that below but essentially I think pulling down the statue was counter-productive.

And they are getting out of control. Their actions are those of third world countries and anarchists.

Their tactics are just strengthening conservative resolve and activism.

It is also further dividing the country and creating new and invigorated white seperatists.

If you don't like a statue or monument on government property, there is a legal process to have it removed.

If it is on private property, suck it up and move on.
This is where my * comes in. According to a poster above, proper channels were previously followed with no action being taken. I would like to know more about what efforts were made and the results before completely condemning these people, but on the whole, they aren't doing themselves any favors taking things into their own hands unless their previous efforts should have been successful but were blocked in one way or another.

The left has really lost it's way, it's pretty sad. Every time something like this happens it pushes me further away from the left. I don't want to be associated with behavior like this.
These are the kind of generalizations (this post and the opening of the one above) that make it difficult for me to enter discussion of this topic without swearing. Why is it, that when something like this happens, or there is a killer who happens to be Muslim, or any other scapegoat of the week target group the alt-right is on to this week, that person is wholly representative of the entire broadest group the person can be tied to, but when similar occurs among white people, Trump supporters, fundamentalist Christians, the argument becomes, it was just that one individual. He doesn't stand for us. This hypocrisy is why people denounced Trump for not immediately calling the white supremacist group at the center of the other protest. Instead, he takes the "on many sides" tac to avoid pissing off his constituents. This thread is full of such nonsense and it makes me ill. Not to target you particularly, Z; I've agreed with other posts of yours ITT.
No system in place to accommodate them? The system was actively redesigned so as to continue to not accommodate them in various ways.
And it's still a country where the states are constantly pushing voter laws and gerrymandering to keep it that way. There's a term for that... systemic something...
 
America is losing it's identity. It's been happening for 8 1/2 years. Our history, heritage and our roots are under attack. Now Christianity is seen as the enemy. 8 1/2 years ago we elected a very anti-American president with the most non-American name I could never think of. He elevated Islam, mental disorders (transgenderism), Ahmed's phony bomb clock and European socialism. Trump was elected to basically reverse what happened during Obama. And the left is now literally having a fit and vandalizing parts of America.
Wow, you really outed yourself this time. You officially disgust me. Get bloody Moonunit Zappa and ask her what names are American. Fundamentalist Christianity is only an enemy to sane people. Tell me, in the land of opportunity, where anyone can be president, what the hell does a person's name or religion have to do with it? What right do you have to suggest it should make any difference at all in a country where "all men are created equal"?

Whose name is American enough for you? Ted Cruz? What a hypocrite. Please go away now.
More money means better education? Seems they ask for more and more money every time they can, yet standards keep dropping. Do we give people raises when they fail miserably?
Happens all the time-just look at who got in trouble in the global financial crisis. Anyway, whose fault is corruption in a state education system where the money is not actually going toward educating the children? Hmm states rights, indeed.
 
Freedom has always been messy like that though thats nothing to frett about. It wasnt the best situation to find oneself in and its another chapter of that blood and suffering that we can all appreciate as a people trying to be free. When I said a lot of people have bled and suffered for 2017 to be so rad I meant it. All of these stories are our story Americas story. They should have monuments that stand next to the rest of them to tell their stories and tales so that we can see that they were real people once too
That's a great way to look at it... from inside a museum or history book or a classroom. Anyway, by this reasoning, the statue coming down fits in equally well in this narrative and it should stay exactly where it is in its current state.
 
Tell me, in the land of opportunity, where anyone can be president, what the hell does a person's name or religion have to do with it?
It can be a good indicator or who you stand with and for. Along with other things he said during the campaign.

B. Hussein Obama. That should have told us right there that he might love Islam and it's no wonder he wanted to bring tens of thousands more Muslims over here. He often talked about that and constantly defended Islam.

People got tired of that (Islam) and Obama's transgender pushing agenda, so we elected Trump.

And yes, he was the most anti-American president we've ever had. And Trump is and has been in the process of reversing some of his damage.
 
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No means..


<{jackyeah}>
 
In the waning days of the Confederacy, the Barksdale Bill was passed on March 13, 1865. The bill allowed for the enlistment of black slaves for service in the Confederacy, but required the permission of their master, and left whether they could be emancipated for their service ultimately in the hands of their master rather the guaranteeing it by law.18, 11 Far from being symbolic of any actual movement towards emancipation, or evidence that slavery was less than a core value of the Confederacy, the law should be viewed as nothing more than a desperate measure by the Confederate leadership who knew just how close to defeat they were. Even considering their situation, the measure was far from universally supported. The fire-eater Robert Toombs decried the bill, declaring that “the day that the army of Virginia allows a negro regiment to enter their lines as soldiers they will be degraded, ruined, and disgraced.”11 The distaste for such an act was strong with many more, and it was only the truly dire straits that saw passage of the bill. A year prior, Gen. Patrick Cleburne had suggested a similar motion, seeing slaves not only as source of manpower, but daring to suggest that emancipation could help the Confederacy:

It is said that slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.

His proposal, flying in the face of Confederate opinion and policy, was utterly ignored, and almost certainly derailed his career as well, since, despite his obvious talents, he received no further promotion before his death in November, 1864.

As noted, even when the idea of black soldiers had enough support, it still fell far short of Cleburne's proposal, which, if taken at face value, truly could have stood to change the relationship between the Confederacy and slavery, and instead offered a watered down measure that didn't even give absolute guarantee for those slaves who served as soldiers. And in part due to this, partly due to masters unwilling to part with their property, and in no small part due to unwillingness on the part of the slaves themselves who know freedom was only around the corner, the law failed to have any effect. Barely a handful of recruits ever reported for training, and they would never see action, as Richmond fell two months later, with the erstwhile recruits enthusiastically greeting the Yankees along with the rest of the now freed black population.11

Outside of the Barksdale Bill and Cleburne, motion to enlist black soldiers did rear its head on one instance. Free people of color and mulattoes enjoyed a much greater degree of acceptance and freedom in New Orleans than elsewhere in the south, and a 1,000 man unit was raised there at the onset of the war, known as the Louisiana Native Guard, composed entirely of free blacks and mulattoes, barring the regimental commanders. While more accepted in New Orleans, the Native Guard still faced considerable discrimination, never even being issued with arms or uniforms, forcing them to provision on their own dime. New Orleans fell in early 1862, and, having never seen action, the shaky loyalties of the Native Guard was made evident when many of their number soon were dressed in Union blue with the reformation of the Native Guard under Yankee control.19, 20

And that is, the sum of it all. The South undeniably seceded over the issue of slavery. Their words and actions cry it from the rooftops. Lincoln, while entering the war to preserve the perpetual union of the states, never had slavery far from his mind. It was that fact which drove secession, and it was the splintering of the nation that allowed Lincoln's anti-slavery to transition from personal conviction into a policy of emancipation as the war dragged on. Less than a year after the first shot was fired upon Fort Sumter, Lincoln was contemplating how he could bring about the end of slavery, and by the next, he had made his move, ensuring the eventual destruction of the South's peculiar institution. While the accepted history of the war for many decades following lionized the "Lost Cause" of the south, and romanticized the conflict, all to downplay the base values of the Confederacy, that narrative is nothing more than a legend, a falsehood, and in recent decades has, rightfully, been eclipsed by a revitalization of scholarship that has returned slavery to its rightful place in the history of the American Civil War.

Bibliography:

Primary sources are linked here for context. Other sources are noted with superscript and listed below, although due to the character limit, they are in a separate post
Cleburne was an amazing soldier and leader by the way. His men loved him.

This is a nice write up, but it's one guys opinion piece.

I've not once defended the Confederacy or stated that the main reason for secession was not slavery. Slavery was of course the bottom line, it just wasn't the only factor.

My main point is the war was never about freeing slaves and the people and politicians (outside of small pockets of people on both sides) cared nothing about the slaves as people.

This war was about money and power. We can both search for an equal amount of articles and sources that can lean toward each of our directions, but when you look into things that happened and the motivation behind those actions, it all comes back to money and political power.
 
Cleburne was an amazing soldier and leader by the way. His men loved him.

This is a nice write up, but it's one guys opinion piece.

I've not once defended the Confederacy or stated that the main reason for secession was not slavery. Slavery was of course the bottom line, it just wasn't the only factor.

My main point is the war was never about freeing slaves and the people and politicians (outside of small pockets of people on both sides) cared nothing about the slaves as people.

This war was about money and power. We can both search for an equal amount of articles and sources that can lean toward each of our directions, but when you look into things that happened and the motivation behind those actions, it all comes back to money and political power.
Exactly right! They won't teach this in schools today.
 
These are the kind of generalizations (this post and the opening of the one above) that make it difficult for me to enter discussion of this topic without swearing. Why is it, that when something like this happens, or there is a killer who happens to be Muslim, or any other scapegoat of the week target group the alt-right is on to this week, that person is wholly representative of the entire broadest group the person can be tied to, but when similar occurs among white people, Trump supporters, fundamentalist Christians, the argument becomes, it was just that one individual. He doesn't stand for us. This hypocrisy is why people denounced Trump for not immediately calling the white supremacist group at the center of the other protest. Instead, he takes the "on many sides" tac to avoid pissing off his constituents. This thread is full of such nonsense and it makes me ill. Not to target you particularly, Z; I've agreed with other posts of yours ITT.

I don't blame the entire left and I shouldn't generalize, you're right. For me it's really not just the one instance, it's the direction I see the left headed that makes me mad. I'm an independent but I lean left and agree with a lot of their thinking on social issues. I would so much rather they go about things in a different way and not stoop to the level of the extreme groups. It just really disappoints me when stuff like this happens. It makes me sad that in today's world people can't just act like adults.
 
I don't blame the entire left and I shouldn't generalize, you're right. For me it's really not just the one instance, it's the direction I see the left headed that makes me mad. I'm an independent but I lean left and agree with a lot of their thinking on social issues. I would so much rather they go about things in a different way and not stoop to the level of the extreme groups. It just really disappoints me when stuff like this happens. It makes me sad that in today's world people can't just act like adults.
And that is the problem with the Democratic Party now. They have no real identity. You seem like a stable guy who leans left, but do you support open bathrooms, mixed locker rooms/showers in schools, bending over backward to accommodate BLM/Transgender rights/gun bans, etc?

I can get people who think liberally, but still maintain common sense.

But the Democrats have a dilemma on just how far out there they are willing to go. I think it's going to push more Democrats to Independents.

And it's making Conservatives even more Conservative and galvanized.
 
Cleburne was an amazing soldier and leader by the way. His men loved him.

This is a nice write up, but it's one guys opinion piece.

I've not once defended the Confederacy or stated that the main reason for secession was not slavery. Slavery was of course the bottom line, it just wasn't the only factor.

My main point is the war was never about freeing slaves and the people and politicians (outside of small pockets of people on both sides) cared nothing about the slaves as people.

This war was about money and power. We can both search for an equal amount of articles and sources that can lean toward each of our directions, but when you look into things that happened and the motivation behind those actions, it all comes back to money and political power.

Those posts also explain the evolution of nullification and debunk as well as show that secession was a revolutionary right (won through war) and not a constitutional right.

It also shows that the South were Nationalist when it suited them and state's rights when it didn't.

The US was not a loose collection of states that were free to secede. It was a United nation whose means of remedies between state's and the nation was the courts.

Their only right to secession was might which they lacked.
 
And that is the problem with the Democratic Party now. They have no real identity. You seem like a stable guy who leans left, but do you support open bathrooms, mixed locker rooms/showers in schools, bending over backward to accommodate BLM/Transgender rights/gun bans, etc?

I can get people who think liberally, but still maintain common sense.

But the Democrats have a dilemma on just how far out there they are willing to go. I think it's going to push more Democrats to Independents.

And it's making Conservatives even more Conservative and galvanized.

I use to identify as Liberal. The problem is now there is no liberals. It's something entirely different. Although like you said, there isn't really conservatism now either, it's a weird mix too.

It's almost like we need more than two parties to vote for, and the system as it is is polarizing.
 
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