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Discussion in 'Archives II' started by Kforcer, May 30, 2009.
rude knocked someone out with a slap a few years ago
orndorff kicked vader's ass.
that cornette tirade has been posted in these threads, if its the one where he calls him a 'whip-armed ***got.'
it was the opposite of that
The Orndorff-Vader fight involved them getting into it in a shower, with Orndorff over the years flip-flopping on the issue, at times he admits beating him straight up and at times saying he jumped Vader.
Keep the Meng and Harley Race stories coming. GREAT stuff!
Unlike most backstage fight stories, there isn't a single account that matches another. Every account is somewhat different. Here's a general overview of what "supposedly" happened. Unlike all the other things I've posted, this post is taken from a friend of mine. I am just reposting what he wrote and changing it just a tad.
- Orndorff's version: Orndorff
Saku, I remember when I was younger hearing about the Bushwhackers(then known as the Sheepherders) beating the shit out of the Road Warriors in a cage match, since the Road Warriors were known to be stiff and not sell. Supposedly, one of them was throwing up from the beating. Seemed weird to me that the Bushwhackers of all people would be able to do that and I haven't heard about it since amongst all the cool internet stories. Got any info on that?
Haven't seen you in a while man. Anyhow, I haven't much about it but the Bushwhackers were two tough dudes. I have tape of them when wrestling way back in the day as the Sheepherder and they were wrestling very physical, violent matches so I wouldn't be surprised to hear they got into it with the Road Warriors, if true. I have never ever seen a single Sheepherders vs. Road Warriors cage match so I have no clue what you're talking about. I'll send Meltzer an email to ask about it and we'll see what he has to say. Hopefully he'll get back to me within the next few days.
Hogan got into it with a few guys. I guess Matsuda's catch-wrestling training served Hogan well; apparently, and this is according to Bret Hart, he got the better of David Schultz after about 45 minutes of them going at it. He got the better of an ancient Verne Gagne, but obviously a Gagne that was even remotely close to his prime would've reduced Hogan to a stain on whatever surface it was they were fighting on.
I definitely don't buy that Hogan took Choshu out unless he really sucker punched him.
I wouldn't really count the UWF versus Thai boxers/boxers/other martial artist bouts in this thread, as those were basically MMA matches with special rules, rather than planned works that turned into shoots.
So, nobody hear has seen Backlund-Funaki? I'm curious about people's opinions on it.
Fujiwara-Maeda, I'm curious about. Fujiwara was made to work with Maeda at a time when Maeda was refusing to put people over because he didn't think their skills were as legit as his. So, as arguably Japan's premier submission ace, Fujiwara was a guy who Maeda not only obviously respected, but also would have a tough time getting the better of if it came to a shoot. Anyway, I've seen the Fujiwara-Maeda matches from the time period in question and the thing is that they're both so fundamentally sound with their technique that it is hard for me to tell whether or not they are shooting, lightly shooting and improvising in the context of a work(which lots of worked shoot wrestling specialists did) or just working a very, very technical match.
A lot of the matches between the young boys in the UWF and NJPW have the look of shoots or semi-shoots to them from where I stand, such as Suzuki-Tamura, though I SUSPECT it was more of people being physical and mean to each other in the context of a match that is nonetheless worked.
The Bushwhackers/Sheepherders were also very well trained wrestlers prior to their violent/goofy days. They were schooled in European style catch wrestling, and their initial professional bouts were under an odd mixture of European rounds rules and amatuer style mat work, so they knew how to hook and shoot.
In addition, both guys were reputable brawlers because when they were growing up in New Zealand they were in the New Zealand equivalent of tough neighborhoods so street fighting wasn't foreign to them.
You can watch them work as heels and just see the way they do things in the ring and you can tell if they were to get into a brawl they'd be able to handle themselves, and thats without their shooting backgrounds.
Back to Vader-Orndorff for a moment, Bobby Heenan in his initial shoot interview once called Paul Orndorff the toughest man alive for 2 reasons, 1) He kicked in Vader's face while wearing shower shoes, and 2) He KO'ed a midget with a punch.
Bobby Heenan rules.
EDIT - Kforcer I've been trying to find Backlund vs. Funaki for years. I honestly think in terms of guys who are underrated in real life situations and could have been great in MMA, Backlund is at the top of that list. I've always really wanted to see how a past his best Bob did with Funaki for my own eyes to judge.
Bob being a Division II NCAA National Champion at 193 pounds out of North Dakota State gives you an idea he could probably have been a pretty good MMA fighter due to a strong base like that, but in addition he could hurt someone.
A young Buzz Sawyer was always looking to break into the business, and constantly showed up at the Tampa Armory to talk to Mike Graham about breaking into the Florida territory, where almost everyone wanted to work at the time. Eddie Graham happened to be there one day, and Eddie always liked to take the young hopefuls and send them in with a guy with a legit amateur background, much the way a young Hulk Hogan had his shin broken by Hiro Matsuda.
So anyway, Buzz is there one day, and Backlund happens to be working out there in the ring doing his world-famous conditioning drills as the guy was and still is apparently a fitness and conditioning freak. Eddie wants to have some fun with Buzz, and calls Backlund to work him out.
Buzz was 19 and had been the Georgia State Freestyle Wrestling champion in his senior year in high school, just one year ago, so Buzz knew what he was doing on the mat. As Mike Graham tells it, after about 20 seconds of Backlund having some fun, Buzz tries to get agressive with him, so Bob chickenwings Buzz's arm, crossfaces him, but instead of locking hands Bob uses the arm he's applying the chicken wing with to drive his elbow into the center of Buzz's back and use the crossface to pull his head back, and Buzz passed out from the pain he was in.
I don't buy Hogan/Choshu for a second. The only reason Hogan was able to get Verne was because Verne was 50+ years old and out of shape. As KForcer said, a prime Gagne wouldn't made Hogan say uncle as fast as Matsuda broke Hogan's ankle/leg.
BTW, I've never seen the Backlund V. Funaki match so I can't comment on it nor have I heard anything about it other than it was a dq or something like that. Years ago they talked about it on the DVD boards.
Funny story about these two. Goldberg was on a Florida radio show after he left the WWE and Goldberg was asked about his issue with Jericho. Goldberg scoffed and he just said "Let's just put it this way, Jericho and I never saw eye to eye if you know what I mean" insinuating that Jericho was a midget.
About 3 months later, Jericho was on the same radio program and the host played Jericho the clip of Goldberg saying that and Jericho responded "Bill's right. We never saw eye to eye because all Bill ever saw was the ground whenever we went at it!" and the host, being a big wrestling fan, knew exactly what Jericho was saying. That was just a classic remark on Jericho's part.
Hogan made the Choshu claim in his book. Seems like a weird thing to just make up.
I'll have to find my book now and re-read it sometime soon.
While not really shoot related Hogans claim that his trainer broke his ankle three times and to see if Hogan had the heart to come back strikes me as complete BS. So i call most of his book boastful bragadocious posturing.
Stiner Vs Hennig =disturbing. Holding another man down for over an hour while threatening to shove your thumb up his ass. That sounds more like a prison story than a fight story.
It sucks but New Jack VS Mass Transit could kinda be called a shoot. Kinda.
Thanks for checking on that Bushwhackers story. I do remember hearing it like 10 years ago, but have not seen or heard nothing about it, so it's probably bullshit. But it'd be nice to know for sure.
Didn't Hogan knock someone outside of the ring for a countout in Japan because the guy was shooting?
I know that it's pretty common for people to shoot on the Young Boys in Japan. Trying to find some video.
I think I've seen Maeda/Backlund but if I did it was so long ago and when I was so new to shoot style that I can't remember anything about it. Definitely going to look around for it asap though.
That is a very biased account in my opinion. There is nothing to suggest Booker T got the better of Batista afaik, except maybe some internet gossip from third rate dirtsheet reporters who would have naturally taken the side of absolutely anyone opposing Batista due to their inherent bias against him. I do remember though that the following week on Smackdown, Batista had fingernail marks on his face, and iirc Booker T had a bruise on his face. The injuries would seem to indicate that some kind of close struggle ocurred and that Booker T had a tough time trying to push Batista away or restrain him.
As far as Inoki/Great Antonio, Inoki is allowed to do whatever the fuck he wants because he's Inoki and we're all not. Anyone who even remotely disrespects Inoki deserves to get stomped out by him, let alone disrespecting him as much as the Great Antonio did. Besides, Inoki had to finish it. There was an audience. If Inoki had just taken him down and landed a few blows to put him in his place, the guy would have got up and either left or continued to fight Inoki. Either scenario would have been damaging for Inoki's credibility and for his claims that pro wrestling is a real sport and that pro wrestlers were the strongest fighters in the world. I suppose he could have choked him out, but I guess he wanted to show everyone that you don't fuck with Inoki. Fair enough, I think. If anyone earnt that right, it's him.
Anyway, not a shoot as such, but Katsuyori Shibata (the same Katsuyori Shibata who competes in Dream, fought Saku, Mayhem, Akiyama, etc) not long after he had graduated from the NJPW dojo I believe (year 2000), actually killed somebody in one of his earlier matches with a stiff shot. In a match against Masakazu Fukuda, a friend and fellow rookie, Shibata hit a stiff flying elbow smash and Fukuda dropped unconcious. He died a couple of days after due to brain hemorrhaging. Supposedly he had a pre-existing undiagnosed brain disorder. Some people say it affected Shibata's mental health something chronic though, which is rumoured to be why he's such a legitimately loose cannon and all round fucking nutcase of larger-than-Maeda proportions.
Also, I have no idea if this is a shoot because I haven't seen the match, but there's this match (and I'm not sure of the promotion either, could have been SEM, or DDT, or maybe some other indy entirely, or hell it may have even just been NOAH), where KENTA is in a match with I think either KUDO or HARISHIMA, and KENTA appears to drop the guy at ringside and go to town stomping the shit out of him. Does anyone know the match I'm talking about? If so, was this some kind of semi-shoot, or was it just part of a regular kenka style of match that KENTA often works? Like I said, I haven't seen the match so I can't tell, I've just seen a few seconds of poorly shoot footage.
Batista didn't go over to say hello to the mid-carders during the Summer Slam video shoot, Booker didn't take it well.
They got in a fight that Booker was winning, and they were split up.
Batista then offered to go into a room and scarp. Somewhere along the way Booker and Big Dave kicked off again.
Booker got the better of Batista both times.
No problem man. As for the Hogan incident you're talking about, the only thing that comes to mind is Hogan winning the IWGP title by count out when he KO'd Inoki and Inoki didn't get up and get back in the ring in time. It was a work. Hogan and Inoki were on very good terms.
Find one account that suggests Batista got the better of Booker T. Every single account has Booker T getting the better of Batista and it started supposedly because Batista's ego was getting big due to his title push and he felt everyone should respect him because he was carrying the company and many guys didn't like so Booker T supposedly told Batista to "chill out and give it a rest" and that's how it all started. According to everyone who's ever worked with Booker T., he's a real chill, calm guy. Anyhow, even Rey Misterio who was actually there, said Booker T. was in the right and Booker T. was kicking Batista's ass before they were finally separated.