Prime (in shape) Duran vs prime "Money" Floyd

[nastyleft]

Go and name an opponent who's not tommy hearns or not a higher weight class who beats Floyd and we are talking 135 here

Esteban De Jesus...LOL
Wilfred Benitez
Kirkland Laing

Dont want to hear excuses about it was out of his natural weight etc. If he was a truly great champion he should have made sure he didn't lose to ANYONE at ANY weightclass because the great fighters either don't move up and continue to win or they move up and still win. Duran had problems against boxers that moved, and Floyd was every bit of that. But I dont want to go in circles with this cause its already a long ass thread..LOL

 

[nastyleft]

Yeah no doubt. That's why he all of the sudden started whispering shit in the corner. I remember hearing that the mayweather camp expected him to do something dirty, it may have even been Floyd saying it after the fight.

Yup right between the rounds before it happened. "If you start to get in a little trouble lets even this shit out, go low and change the tone" or whatever he said..... And you can actually see Zab wasn't completely on board by the expression on his face. But when the desperation came in, he took the plunge.

 

[Sunfish]

Esteban De Jesus...LOL
Wilfred Benitez
Kirkland Laing

Dont want to hear excuses about it was out of his natural weight etc. If he was a truely great champion he should have made sure he didn't lose to ANYONE at ANY weightclass because the great fighters either don't move up and continue to win or they move up and still win. Duran had problems against boxers that moved, and Floyd was every bit of that. But I dont want to go in circles with this cause its already a long ass thread..LOL

Are you seriously suggesting they beat pbf? Because if you are ill have your underwear round your ankles at poker.

 

[nastyleft]

Thanks for replying. Duran wouldn't beat him.

Know what??? My bad, I miss read...haha. you said WOULDN'T beat him.
One too many vodkas........

 

[nastyleft]

Are you seriously suggesting they beat pbf? Because if you are ill have your underwear round your ankles at poker.

I miss-read, read above, we're on the same side....

...you wish you could have my undies at my ankles, dont you pumpkin...

And you don't want none at poker my friend.

 

[Sunfish]

I miss-read, read above, we're on the same side....

...you wish you could have my undies at my ankles, dont you pumpkin...

And you don't want none at poker my friend.

When you've won 6 figures at poker I'll talk.

 

[kenji goh]

Break it down...how? What does Duran do that Floyd has NEVER been able to handle? And what does Floyd do that Duran has NEVER been able to handle?

Floyd has a tendency to get on the ropes. Cotto, De La Hoya, Maidana (in the first fight) all of them push him there for a great part of of their fight.
Cotto manage to find some success there too.

Duran is many times better infighter than all of them, with really heavy hands at welterweight. Watch any video of Leonard talking about the effect they had on him.
The biggest puncher he met at that weight according to his own words.
Duran was really good at driving people on the ropes and beat them in the body.
He could do this even in losing efforts. In his second fight with Leonard for example, he still rushed him several times in the ropes
and had success both downstairs and to his head, although Leonard did his best to be mobile every second of the fight.

Duran couldn't make the most of it though. He seemed low in energy and his punches didn't have any sting.
Plus Leonard unloaded powerful uppercuts and rights, something Mayweather can't do, both due to his style (light counters whose power is based mostly on timing)
and due to him not having much power at welterweight. I would compare Floyd's punching power at welterweight with Duran's at 168.

My point is that a motivated and well prepared Duran will spend a lot of time with Floyd at inside and let him have it.
Floyd wouldn't be able to stop this from happening.

Also Floyd wouldn't find it so easy to time him. Floyd is a master at setting the pace of the fight and breaking his opponent's rhythm. It's
what he does!
Duran had an awkward timing though and he was one of the best, if not the best, fainters in the history of the sport. He had many ways to open his opponent's defence.

Duran was a complete fighter imo. He could do anything. The best technician of the fabulous 4.
Something that became obvious when he became older and depended more on his technique.
Outclassing fighters that knocked both Hearns and Leonard out within a year difference.
There are videos with Barkley saying he was the best technician he fought.
It's not by accident that he is in so many top10 pound for pound lists and he is still absolutely loved by boxing "experts".

So at welterweight I could see Duran winning. He had the tools to beat anyone including Floyd.
Not that I count Floyd out. It would be a hell of a match. No way Floyd would school a top of his game Duran though.

 

[RichardSwingslo]

Are you seriously suggesting they beat pbf? Because if you are ill have your underwear round your ankles at poker.

I like where this is headed

 

[nastyleft]

Floyd has a tendency to get on the ropes. Cotto, De La Hoya, Maidana (in the first fight) all of them push him there for a great part of of their fight.
Cotto manage to find some success there too.

Duran is many times better infighter than all of them, with really heavy hands at welterweight. Watch any video of Leonard talking about the effect they had on him.
The biggest puncher he met at that weight according to his own words.
Duran was really good at driving people on the ropes and beat them in the body.
He could do this even in losing efforts. In his second fight with Leonard for example, he still rushed him several times in the ropes
and had success both downstairs and to his head, although Leonard did his best to be mobile every second of the fight.

Duran couldn't make the most of it though. He seemed low in energy and his punches didn't have any sting.
Plus Leonard unloaded powerful uppercuts and rights, something Mayweather can't do, both due to his style (light counters whose power is based mostly on timing)
and due to him not having much power at welterweight. I would compare Floyd's punching power at welterweight with Duran's at 168.

My point is that a motivated and well prepared Duran will spend a lot of time with Floyd at inside and let him have it.
Floyd wouldn't be able to stop this from happening.

Also Floyd wouldn't find it so easy to time him. Floyd is a master at setting the pace of the fight and breaking his opponent's rhythm. It's
what he does!
Duran had an awkward timing though and he was one of the best, if not the best, fainters in the history of the sport. He had many ways to open his opponent's defence.

Duran was a complete fighter imo. He could do anything. The best technician of the fabulous 4.
Something that became obvious when he became older and depended more on his technique.
Outclassing fighters that knocked both Hearns and Leonard out within a year difference.
There are videos with Barkley saying he was the best technician he fought.
It's not by accident that he is in so many top10 pound for pound lists and he is still absolutely loved by boxing "experts".

So at welterweight I could see Duran winning. He had the tools to beat anyone including Floyd.
Not that I count Floyd out. It would be a hell of a match. No way Floyd would school a top of his game Duran though.

Yet he lost 16 times. He was #4 out of the big 4... Stop it. Duran is overrated. He was great but he's rated too highly by most.

 

[nastyleft]

When you've won 6 figures at poker I'll talk.

Thats just stacks and a good run, has nothing to do with skill...I WILL take your money.

We need to have a Sherdog Poker Night. Some location during a big fight weekend.

 

[JayE]

Esteban De Jesus...LOL
Wilfred Benitez
Kirkland Laing

Dont want to hear excuses about it was out of his natural weight etc. If he was a truly great champion he should have made sure he didn't lose to ANYONE at ANY weightclass because the great fighters either don't move up and continue to win or they move up and still win. Duran had problems against boxers that moved, and Floyd was every bit of that. But I dont want to go in circles with this cause its already a long ass thread..LOL

Duran was a "truly great champion" and that's miles beyond debate. Floyd's greatest struggles have been against pressure fighters with great footwork and good infighting ability. You can make an argument that Duran is the greatest pressure fighter of all time. It's not even close to an easy fight for Floyd peak for peak.

 

[nastyleft]

Duran was a "truly great champion" and that's miles beyond debate. Floyd's greatest struggles have been against pressure fighters with great footwork and good infighting ability. You can make an argument that Duran is the greatest pressure fighter of all time. It's not even close to an easy fight for Floyd peak for peak.

His only great win is Leonard, ONCE.
But got tooled twice after. And he's been beaten 16 times. Hard to be called the greatest anything.
Duran's resume isnt even better than Pacquiao's.

 

[kenji goh]

Yet he lost 16 times. He was #4 out of the big 4... Stop it. Duran is overrated. He was great but he's rated too highly by most.

I will take Iran Barkley's word over yours anyday.
Also his performances against Barkley and Camacho speak for themselves.

Here is what Angelo Dundee said about this match up in 2009:

Spoiler

“Oh gosh, Duran’s a living legend. And one of the best fighters today is Floyd Mayweather. That would be some fight. I tell you – it would be Floyd Mayweather’s toughest encounter. Duran against a guy with quick hands like Mayweather – he could nullify that. Duran offset quick hands through feints, head feints, foot feints and foot movements. He was a complete fighter. He had all that stuff going for him. Then he nails you. Then he bulls you too. Mayweather would be facing something he never faced before. You’re saying the fight would be at lightweight? I like Duran. Duran was slick, smart, body puncher, made you fall short with punches. At lightweight I would like Duran. He could get under your skin too. He could con you. He had ways to bother you. He was like Muhammad Ali in that way, but he couldn’t speak English. Duran was a real psyche artist. “It’s tough. Mayweather always rises to the occasion. He impresses the hell out of me. I knew Duran from the inception – he trained at the Fifth Street Gym (Miami). I watched him all the time. A guy I trained, Duran was working with him – Vinnie Curto. A lightweight hurting a middleweight. There was no smarter, cuter fighter than Vinnie Curto. The only thing that bothered Duran was a long, left jab. And Mayweather doesn’t have that. Certain guys give certain guys problems. We haven’t seen what gives Mayweather problems. Are we talking 15 rounds? I like Duran. I like Duran. You’re talking about Mayweather going 15 rounds. Duran was pressure, pressure. He was strong. He could punch. God, he was a great lightweight. He takes advantage of every little thing. And he did it smooth, with grace. Everything was slick and smart. I like Duran.”

 

[JayE]

His only great win is Leonard, ONCE.
But got tooled twice after. And he's been beaten 16 times. Hard to be called the greatest anything.
Duran's resume isnt even better than Pacquiao's.

I mean, it's not hard to call him the greatest LW of all time, seeing as he's more or less the top choice among historians (only Benny Leonard and maybe Joe Gans are in the conversation with him). You can say his only great win is Leonard, but that's one of the greatest wins of all time where a guy jumped two weight classes and beat one of the greatest fighters ever in his prime weight class very close to his prime. It's an appreciably better win than any on Floyd's resume.

I'm not arguing that Duran walks over Floyd, but you have to ignore the style of every single fighter who ever troubled Floyd to think Duran would somehow be an easy fight for him. What Duran didn't have was anywhere near the consistency of Floyd (of course, they fought in different eras where there were different realities; if Floyd had to fight as much as Duran, it would be a lot harder to be unbeaten) and that weighs against his resume, but if we're talking peak for peak around LW, it's not going to be an easy fight. Floyd's two toughest fights (one of which you can argue he lost) came against an elite pressure fighter who, as good and underrated as he was, was Duran's inferior.

 

[JayE]

Yet he lost 16 times. He was #4 out of the big 4... Stop it. Duran is overrated. He was great but he's rated too highly by most.

Are you arguing Hearns and Hagler were greater than Duran? There is an argument for Leonard, but Hearns and Hagler? I've never seen anyone argue that. The fact he hit his prime at 135 pounds, whereas Leonard hit his prime at 47, Hearns at 54, and Hagler at 60 probably does need to be accounted for. Weight matters in boxing.

 

[nastyleft]

Are you arguing Hearns and Hagler were greater than Duran? There is an argument for Leonard, but Hearns and Hagler? I've never seen anyone argue that. The fact he hit his prime at 135 pounds, whereas Leonard hit his prime at 47, Hearns at 54, and Hagler at 60 probably does need to be accounted for. Weight matters in boxing.

I would argue they're better because they all beat him. People always want to argue about weight, but forget a guy can outscore his opponent and win; and that has nothing to do with weight. He went up to compete and fight them to win, hence his loss counts just as much as any other...No excuses.

 

[JayE]

I would argue they're better because they all beat him. People always want to argue about weight, but forget a guy can outscore his opponent and win; and that has nothing to do with weight. He went up to compete and fight them to win, hence his loss counts just as much as any other...No excuses.

Yeah, that's not particularly sound logic. Is Iran Barkley greater than Tommy Hearns because he holds wins over him? Duran was better at LW than Hagler was at MW, not even accounting for what else he did in other divisions, and also moved up and beat Leonard at WW (and beat legitimate titlists like Moore at JMW and Barkley at MW). That would be like Hagler beating Spinks at LHW. Hearns's best win is a past his prime Roberto Duran 19 pounds above his prime weight.

 

[nastyleft]

Mind you, Im only doing this for fun and to challenge your debate skills
Duran was a great boxer, no doubt an ATG. I have all the respect for his accomplishments, but I think he's a little overrated around here.

Yeah, that's not particularly sound logic. Is Iran Barkley greater than Tommy Hearns because he holds wins over him?

He was at the time because he beat him, no??? How do they say it, "the BETTER MAN won that night".

Duran was better at LW than Hagler was at MW, not even accounting for what else he did in other divisions, and also moved up and beat Leonard at WW (and beat legitimate titlists like Moore at JMW and Barkley at MW).

So if he moves up and beats legitamate titlists, then he deserves to be there, correct? No excuses about weight if he loses then...

That would be like Hagler beating Spinks at LHW. Hearns's best win is a past his prime Roberto Duran 19 pounds above his prime weight.

Yeah it always comes down to weight doesn't it? So what, it's cool if a guy wins, but a sorry excuse if he loses. And that was a stone cold KO at Super Welterweight a class LOWER than where he fought Hagler and a division he had already fought 6 fights in already. Dont try to convince me that it was a new weightclass for him. He had been there already for 6 fights and 3 years. So are we supposed to celebrate the wins against guys at whatever weight it's in but make excuses for weight when he loses? Is that how we're doing this?

Oh, and Carlos Palomino and Esteban De Jesus are the only notable guys he beat at LightWeight...what makes him so super at LW?
He moves up and fights Leonard and wins...Great Win!
Fights Leonard again gets tooled to a historic result that'll stick with him the rest of his life.
Moves up again to fight Tommy Hearns, gets put to sleep in 2 rounds. (Why move up and fight if you're not supposed to win?) "moving up in weight", is a disengenous excuse to ignore the fact he LOST period.
Fights Leonard a 3rd time and gets tooled again.
Then trys his luck at Hagler and gets beat. Weight or no weight, I doubt Roberto walked into any of those fights expecting to lose. He came to win no matter what, expected to win, and expected to compete on the terms set forth, otherwise don't show-up. He DID show up and got beat 4 out of the 5 times he fought the other 3 greats of that era. He's basically the Oscar De La Hoya of the 80s.

Stop making excuses for losses when the boxer himself wouldn't have it.

 

[kenji goh]

Mind you, Im only doing this for fun and to challenge your debate skills
Duran was a great boxer, no doubt an ATG. I have all the respect for his accomplishments, but I think he's a little overrated around here.

How the hell is he overrated around here when this thread has basically turned to a debate whether
Mayweather would school him or if Duran was good enough to make it a little difficult for him?
And we are talking about a guy who is in lots of top10 p4p lists.

We are literally a handful of people in the last couple of threads who defend Duran.
It's like you are reading a different discussion in another forum.

 

[Hagler]

Oh, and Carlos Palomino and Esteban De Jesus are the only notable guys he beat at LightWeight...what makes him so super at LW?

He beat Palomino at WW.

But the likes of Buchanan, Viruet, Lampkin, Ishimatsu and Kobayashi, even a guy like Thompson, were no bums at LW.