President Trump to rescind Obama's guidance that encourage racial consideration in college admission

None of those things are created by "culture", although all of those things will create a "culture". People are mislabelling the supposed effect as the cause.

But that leads me to a separate point about "culture" that I hate - which is the implication that some cultures arise independent of the external forces placed upon them. And, similarly wrong, that said cultures will change even if the external forces remain largely the same.

very well said, and ive made this point before, as well.

i feel like there are my cyclical problems in our perpetually poor neighborhoods, that are not limited to education. the people growing up here are desperate, and behave as young desperate people often will. some of this has become a "cultural problem," but policy needs to meet such people halfway, otherwise, nothing will change, aside from the odd outlier individual here and there.
 
But that leads me to a separate point about "culture" that I hate - which is the implication that some cultures arise independent of the external forces placed upon them. And, similarly wrong, that said cultures will change even if the external forces remain largely the same.
That bothers me too. African American kids were sold off from their parents and their fathers/ mothers sold off onto other plantations. Slavery literally broke apart families and some people are shocked that African Americans still have broken families today. We made it illegal to read and some people are shocked that African Americans have a literacy problem or their culture doesn't value education enough. I mean.. really?

I can see affirmative action justified as one of those "external force" that forces a change because you're right: if everything stays the same, nothing will change. Keep external factors the same and expecting something different.. didn't Einstein call that insanity or something?

I just disagree with you that class size and school funding are very high up there on that list of external factors that changing make that cultural change. Sure, it'd have some small effect, but there are a million other things to worry about first.
 
Japanese schools average that many students. That means that many schools have 40+ kids per class all the time. Why is that a problem for inner city schools but not a problem for Japanese schools?


That's a figure of speech but I think it hits on something important: behavioral problems. The problem is that African American culture has broken family units. 72% of African American children are born out of wedlock and 67% are raised in single-parent families. That produces children with behavioral and psychological problems. Japan is the mirror opposite. 2.3% of children are born out of wedlock. The family unit is intact and that produces kids with less behavioral problems. You can teach a class of 40 kids no problem with the latter numbers -- and they do it all the time, more successfully than an American school with 25 kids. The problem isn't that an inner city school has 35 kids in a class. The problem is that 30 of those 35 kids are going to present the same problems that only 2 out of 50 kids would in the other culture. Because only 2.3% of Japanese kids are raised in the environment that ~70% of African American kids are. This isn't going to be solved by messing with funding and class sizes and other superficial nonsense. That's just the icing on the cake.

I don't think it's a poverty thing either. Lots of Japanese kids are in poverty and they don't have the same problems. I think the problem is that poverty correlates with trauma and broken family units in America and that's why you see that correlation.

people in japan do not experience poverty in the way that americans do (e.g. they can all go to the doctor). their impoverished schools are not as impoverished as american ones are. they, as most other developed countries, have a baseline that schools generally do not fall below. that is not the case in america, largely because our schools are funded in large part by LOCAL taxes. so the problems in poorer schools are not limited to class size. they have problems related to basic health and safety, like youd find in ecuador......not in japan.

i am not attempting to claim that it is all about money, and that family life is irrelevant. that is not the case. the notion that the quality of the school is irrelevant, though, is absolutely silly. all of these things are important variables.
 
That bothers me too. African American kids were sold off from their parents and their fathers/ mothers sold off onto other plantations. Slavery literally broke apart families and some people are shocked that African Americans still have broken families today. We made it illegal to read and some people are shocked that African Americans have a literacy problem or their culture doesn't value education enough. I mean.. really?

I can see affirmative action justified as one of those "external force" that forces a change because you're right: if everything stays the same, nothing will change. Keep external factors the same and expecting something different.. didn't Einstein call that insanity or something?

slavery is almost irrelevant at this point. there are people alive TODAY, that were forced into dirt floor schools while other kids on the other side of town went to modern developed schools. in the 1980s, we say the most integrated schools had ever been in the US. now, we're nearly to a new segregated low, though this is not due to overt racism.
 
That bothers me too. African American kids were sold off from their parents and their fathers/ mothers sold off onto other plantations. Slavery literally broke apart families and some people are shocked that African Americans still have broken families today. We made it illegal to read and some people are shocked that African Americans have a literacy problem or their culture doesn't value education enough. I mean.. really?

I can see affirmative action justified as one of those "external force" that forces a change because you're right: if everything stays the same, nothing will change. Keep external factors the same and expecting something different.. didn't Einstein call that insanity or something?


Slavery was a long time ago. How long does this excuse get to be relevant? Because it is the excuses and low expectations that help maintain current failures. No accountability leads to no accountability ...

It is 2018 and we have super computers connected to every bit of information that world has to offer in our pockets. We have had a black President. We have self driving cars.

Oh, and black families were doing better in the 1950's, so what in the fuck? The black family has deteriorated over the last 50 years as racism has decreased. Shouldn't things get better the further we get away from slavery?

What part do you think victim culture and welfare have on destroying black families and communities? Do you think someone with a victim complex can succeed in life? Do you think someone dependent on the government generation after generation can succeed in life? Do people who make excuses for bad behavior and failures help or hurt people?

Just asking for a friend (he is black).
 
people in japan do not experience poverty in the way that americans do (e.g. they can all go to the doctor). their impoverished schools are not as impoverished as american ones are. they, as most other developed countries, have a baseline that schools generally do not fall below. that is not the case in america, largely because our schools are funded in large part by LOCAL taxes. so the problems in poorer schools are not limited to class size. they have problems related to basic health and safety, like youd find in ecuador......not in japan.

i am not attempting to claim that it is all about money, and that family life is irrelevant. that is not the case. the notion that the quality of the school is irrelevant, though, is absolutely silly. all of these things are important variables.


What American child is denied a doctor visit? Those in poverty get assistance. Hell, here in California illegal alien children are given MediCal and get free healthcare. No ER can deny any patient ever.
 
Good. No one's pursuit of happiness should ever be impaired because of his race.
 
Slavery was a long time ago. How long does this excuse get to be relevant? Because it is the excuses and low expectations that help maintain current failures. No accountability leads to no accountability ...

It is 2018 and we have super computers connected to every bit of information that world has to offer in our pockets. We have had a black President. We have self driving cars.

Oh, and black families were doing better in the 1950's, so what in the fuck? The black family has deteriorated over the last 50 years as racism has decreased. Shouldn't things get better the further we get away from slavery?

What part do you think victim culture and welfare have on destroying black families and communities? Do you think someone with a victim complex can succeed in life? Do you think someone dependent on the government generation after generation can succeed in life? Do people who make excuses for bad behavior and failures help or hurt people?

Just asking for a friend (he is black).

Saying it's a cause doesn't make it an excuse. It's both a cause and not an excuse.

But do you really think that if all white Americans were enslaved up to 150 years ago that it wouldn't have effect on white American culture today?

I value education because my father got a graduate degree, and he valued education his father did radar and technical stuff in the army. His father served in the army because his family (my great grandparents) valued military service. If it had been illegal for my great grandparents to serve in the army like it was for African Americans before 1948.. well, my grandfather's family doesn't value military service, my grandfather never works on radar stuff, and my family's culture today doesn't value education. It wouldn't be an excuse for my family to not value education but it would be a cause. Not having equality 100+ years ago would still be effecting my family in 2018.
 
very well said, and ive made this point before, as well.

i feel like there are my cyclical problems in our perpetually poor neighborhoods, that are not limited to education. the people growing up here are desperate, and behave as young desperate people often will. some of this has become a "cultural problem," but policy needs to meet such people halfway, otherwise, nothing will change, aside from the odd outlier individual here and there.

I'm sure you've read the research that indicates the people who perceive their opportunities as limited are more likely to pursue short term objectives and those who perceive their opportunities as more vast are more likely to pursue long term objectives. It's just frustrating sometimes to read people assign causes to outcomes while disregarding so much of the information relative to the subject.

If you took a generic student and told someone that he would get the worst teachers, attend the worst schools and not see any viable local job opportunities for 12 years, most people would say "Well, that's a lot of hurdles to overcome." Yet, you put that conversation in the context of inner city schools and people say "Well, that kid and his family just don't care."
 
That bothers me too. African American kids were sold off from their parents and their fathers/ mothers sold off onto other plantations. Slavery literally broke apart families and some people are shocked that African Americans still have broken families today. We made it illegal to read and some people are shocked that African Americans have a literacy problem or their culture doesn't value education enough. I mean.. really?

I can see affirmative action justified as one of those "external force" that forces a change because you're right: if everything stays the same, nothing will change. Keep external factors the same and expecting something different.. didn't Einstein call that insanity or something?

I just disagree with you that class size and school funding are very high up there on that list of external factors that changing make that cultural change. Sure, it'd have some small effect, but there are a million other things to worry about first.

I think schooling is the first and foremost thing. An important initial point, black culture values education higher than most other groups in the U.S. so there's no lack of communal attention to the matter.

The reason schooling is the primary point is because it serves as the de facto barrier to pretty much everything else that matters. Access to high paying jobs? You need a good education. Access to that education starts with pre-K. Wealth in this country is built through home ownership, that's built on income and that's built on education...and that starts with pre-K. Reducing violence is based on access to economic opportunity and that all comes back to education at the root.
 
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