Pope Francis Accused of Propagating Heresey By 62 Catholics

[Devout Pessimist]

I don't know much about the Catholic Church but I figure any institution that large, with that much money involved, and that fucking old is something that has a lot of moving parts and complex internal dynamics that can't just be redirected and molded willy nilly by any one person, even if on paper he's supposed to be "infallible" and the head of it all.

Yes. As @MacDuffle has already posted (#36) there are many positions in the church meant to act as mechanisms against radical change. Everything that is written or proposed is subject to rigorous criticism and debate. Like any political institution sides are taken and games are played in order to gain a higher position and get people out of their positions. I think it is better that thing move slower and there is a barrier against quick change. I think it is what has allowed to Church to stay around for so long. It is not always wise to change simply because something has become socially fashionable.

There is a lot to know and I barely know anything when it comes to the Vatican and its inner workings. It is something I am very interested in learning more about.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

USA Today accuses the Catholic Scholars of being "Far Right" <Lmaoo>


Benedict is very intelligent. I actually own a few of his books. His knowledge of philosophy and theology is mind-blowing and he puts it all together very well. I think a lot of people would be surprised that Benedict also criticizes and questions the Church as well as certain religious assumptions in his writings. In his book Faith and the Future Benedict examines the issues of scientific discoveries and how that causes certain problems for the Church moving forward. I believe it was philosopher Jurgen Habermas who was rather complimentary of Benedict's works. Benedict even admitted that he was more of a scholar than a Pope. He said he lacked the savvy needed to play the political game in order to move things forward in the church.

Personally, I like Pope Francis. I do not agree with his relaxed stance on immigration, but Francis focuses very much on seeing people, and reaching out to them, as human beings made by God. He is trying to bring more compassion to the world. I have read that he is very good at playing the political game and imposing his vision of what the church should be. I have a few books by him that I have yet to read.

The Vatican is a flawed human institution ultimately trying to benefit humanity. Certainly there have been some large bumps along the way, but when you start reading the history of the Vatican and how it has been able to reinvent itself through good times and bad it is hard to take the dismissive criticisms about the church seriously. There is much wisdom taught by the Church, but a lot of people do not want to give it a chance and instead listen to superficial media criticisms and jokes.

Makes sense. It is through Benedict's books that I interfaced with his view on the world and on religion, philosophy, and of course on Christ Himself. As a scholar in that sense he is more accessible to the non-Catholic. As far as Francis, compassion is the word people use to describe his approach, but it's harder for me being a bit on the outside to interface with.

You said you had a few of his books. Are there any of his works that stand out by reputation among Catholics as being more important? I know that Amoris Laetitia is the one being complained about here, but I was thinking The Name o God is Mercy seems like his bestseller.

Haha, sorry to pester you. But I find this subject very interesting and my other Catholic sources are family and that can get sensitive very quickly. You know, my sincere interest in Catholic thinking makes them think i'm close to converting, and that later on leads to disappointment, etc.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Things started turning around once Benedict took charge of the sex abuse files in 2010. He removed close to 400 priests including priests that Pope John Paul II would not remove.

The problem is that things move very slowly in the Vatican. I'm sure Francis would like to do more, but there is a lot of politics involved when it comes to getting things done in the Vatican.

Benedict was in charge of relocating pehophile preists as well. He was no Boy Scout

 

[Devout Pessimist]

You're a Catholic, aren't you?

I cannot edit my posts, but I did want to mention that I am still making the leap to Catholicism. Once I commit there is a lot of bad habits I will have to let go of including shit-posting on Sherdog. I can relate to Augustine when he said, "Lord, make me chaste but not yet." It is just a matter of committing myself to the discipline required of being a genuine Catholic.

 

[MacDuffle]

Yes. As @MacDuffle has already posted (#36) there are many positions in the church meant to act as mechanisms against radical change. Everything that is written or proposed is subject to rigorous criticism and debate. Like any political institution sides are taken and games are played in order to gain a higher position and get people out of their positions. I think it is better that thing move slower and there is a barrier against quick change. I think it is what has allowed to Church to stay around for so long. It is not always wise to change simply because something has become socially fashionable.

There is a lot to know and I barely know anything when it comes to the Vatican and its inner workings. It is something I am very interested in learning more about.

In its most basic terms the church functions according to various administrations on a number of levels. Take Diocese out of the equation, remove Bishops and Cardinals and Popes and councils and ambassadors -- a catholic school has the power to decide whether skirts without knee high socks are the work of satan or just a modern fashion.

That distinction and independent theological authority is huge, and it can apply to more aspects of daily life than any of us can fathom.

A religious administration in any regional, state or other capacity can regulate, monitor or forbid birth control, tattoos, hair dyes, nail polish, language, dress code, school curriculum, extracurriculars and enforce religious tenants to any number of degrees of rigidity/flexibility so long as it does not violate major, broader spectrums of the laws in which it files its fucking taxes or lists its home address

That is huge, and it means that any administration no matter how small or large, any day care center or church summer camp or counseling service or local parish or educational resource to which you abide by, can seize your cell phones, decide who you are allowed to communicate with, what you do, what you look like, how your act, how you reside, etc.

Pope Francis cannot change those operations aside from his movements to appoint regional authority delegates/administrators that reflect his theological interpretations of the faith

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Benedict was in charge of relocating pehophile preists as well. He was no Boy Scout

Yes. In the 1980's he moved a German priest to another location. I am not trying to excuse what happened, but the Church did consult psychiatrists at the time this was happening and it was believed that pedophilia was an illness that could be cured through therapy. The offending priests were put through therapy and moved to another location. Later it was realized that pedophilia is something that cannot be cured.

The best move now would be to get the law involved as soon as their is a sexual abuse claim.

 

[Bald1]

I'm not Catholic and wasn't raised Catholic, but I have a lot of Catholic in laws. One thing I've learned from decades of religious arguments and discussions is that they have a fairly sophisticated view of intra-Church politics. The Church itself, while hierarchical isn't as monolithic as it at first seemed to me.

They cordially disliked the last found the last pope; I found him interesting and read several of his books. I disagreed with his perspective overall, but respected his approach to theology. I don't really understand the new pope's style of Catholicism nearly as well. My in laws are very frustrated by him, but they try to maintain a level of respectfulness.

I wasn't raised in a strict religious household but did attend church (Roman Catholic) regularly as a kid in the old country and went to bible study. I never really gave my religion any thought as I always prioritized faith above sect. Then somewhere in my late teens I realized the best label that suits me is agnostic and now I just say atheist as that's the easiest way to get out of talking about a personal and complex topic. I haven't kept up with church politics or going ons in ages, btw.

The above is just a preface to this: the more independent I became in my thinking and world view, the more I realized how at odds my value system is with the Vatican, as an institution, and as demonstrated by their history. At the same time I don't find that conflict with Christianity as an idea. As even demonstrated by your post, somehow they turned a pure thing into a perversion with politicizing and structuring faith, original sin, coverups, guilded buildings and amassing wealth.

The Vatican is 2nd to Islam on my shit list, but they would have been neck and neck even 500 years ago. That's not to say I make blanket judgements on followers, but damn, it's a hell of a greasy institution they support.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Yes. In the 1980's he moved a German priest to another location. I am not trying to excuse what happened, but the Church did consult psychiatrists at the time this was happening and it was believed that pedophilia was an illness that could be cured through therapy. The offending priests were put through therapy and moved to another location. Later it was realized that pedophilia is something that cannot be cured.

The best move now would be to get the law involved as soon as their is a sexual abuse claim.

Certain priests were mov d many times throughout their lives and committed the same acts every place they went. At some point you have to realize they were just covering up for it.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Makes sense. It is through Benedict's books that I interfaced with his view on the world and on religion, philosophy, and of course on Christ Himself. As a scholar in that sense he is more accessible to the non-Catholic. As far as Francis, compassion is the word people use to describe his approach, but it's harder for me being a bit on the outside to interface with.

You said you had a few of his books. Are there any of his works that stand out by reputation among Catholics as being more important? I know that Amoris Laetitia is the one being complained about here, but I was thinking The Name o God is Mercy seems like his bestseller.

Haha, sorry to pester you. But I find this subject very interesting and my other Catholic sources are family and that can get sensitive very quickly. You know, my sincere interest in Catholic thinking makes them think i'm close to converting, and that later on leads to disappointment, etc.

The Joy of the Gospel is a really good one. He talks to both the lay person and to the clergy about what it means to be a Catholic.

Pope Francis: Conversations with Jorge Bergoglio: His Life in His Own Words is an interview where Francis talks about his personal life. He even talks about his favourite composers (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven).

My personal favourite is the Encyclical on Climate Change and Inequality: On Care for Our Common Home where Pope Francis explains that Catholics have to go beyond treating humanity well and extend our compassion to the planet and the creatures we share the planet with. He also talks about social issues and the importance of the family.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

The Joy of the Gospel is a really good one. He talks to both the lay person and to the clergy about what it means to be a Catholic.

Pope Francis: Conversations with Jorge Bergoglio: His Life in His Own Words is an interview where Francis talks about his personal life. He even talks about his favourite composers (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven).

My personal favourite is the Encyclical on Climate Change and Inequality: On Care for Our Common Home where Pope Francis explains that Catholics have to go beyond treating humanity well and extend our compassion to the planet and the creatures we share the planet with. He also talks about social issues and the importance of the family.

Thank you. I just ordered two on Amazon.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Certain priests were mov d many times throughout their lives and committed the same acts every place they went. At some point you have to realize they were just covering up for it.

I agree. There was a cover up.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

If anyone is interested Bishop Robert Barron talks about the Amoris Laetitia.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I know he's a Jesuit and yeah, he was a move out of the ordinary.

I did not know he was a Jesuit. I did not think it was possible to think any less of him. I would recoil in shame if I was part of an order that has had such an insanely anti semitic history.

 

[Islam Imamate]

He's a pr move by the church. Nothing more. He still presides over an extremely regressive church that does so much harm to the world.

I did not know he was a Jesuit. I did not think it was possible to think any less of him. I would recoil in shame if I was part of an order that has had such an insanely anti semitic history.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

This guy explains what the controversy is about. He calls it a nothingburger:

(Timestamped at 1:25)

 

[hillelslovak87]

 

[hillelslovak87]

This guy explains what the controversy is about. He calls it a nothingburger:

(Timestamped at 1:25)

Heresy is so 18th century. The modernism movement all but ensured hysterics like these priests wont get away with nonsense like this.

I dont really like the pope at all, but if they charge him with heresy based upon christian doctrine, maybe they would be right, but he could simply point out another passage from somewhere else, and it's a wash.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Wtf is up with John C Reilly? One year he's in Wreck-It Ralph, a huge animated film by the Disney studio, and the next he's doing adult swim shows. Christ man, have some respect for yourself.

 

[deltapapha]

I'm not a catholic either but I think that pope is a SJW communist.

I suppose to some it would seem obvious enough.

I am aware of his Jesuit Liberation theology roots, which I consider deplorable and dangerous.

 

[AgonyandIrony]

Wtf is up with John C Reilly? One year he's in Wreck-It Ralph, a huge animated film by the Disney studio, and the next he's doing adult swim shows. Christ man, have some respect for yourself.

He's also done Guardians of the Galaxy 2, and Kong. He's friends with Will and Will runs FunnyOrDie, which has similar content. A lot of big name actors have been on the Eric Andrew show, absurd comedy like Tim and Eric and The Eric Andrew Show have always had much larger followings than most people think and a lot of famous actors/comedians appear on Adult Swim.

Also Dr Steve Brules is fucking hilarious.