Pettis-Aldo: One More Reason for Fighter Union

[Azure]

Yup get a union, Driver up the cost of doing business, deal with Labour stopages, have the UFC go under like all the others because their current successful business model gets thrown out the window and go back to watching regional shows in gymnasiums.

 

[ISWThunder]

but i'm not calling everyone a moron.

the circumstances of the workers is steadily IMPROVING. the idea that pettis getting a title shot is a reason for a union is actually pretty dumb, imo. which is what this thread started as.

this is a sport with one company that has steadily been bringing up the standard for fighters. more fighters, more money, more benefits. if you saddle the company with labor demands, costs, etc, you take AWAY the incentive of the investors (owners) to put more into the company. take AWAY the ability of management to put together events as they see best for the company. i just don't see how that is in the best interest long term of the fighters at this time.

I very clearly referred to guy that actually did call everyone morons.

Again, make that argument with the TS, because I agreed with that already.

Things have definitely improved, but that doesn't prove that things can't be made better, quicker or that the progress will continue relative to the sport's success. The UFC has a ton of control over their fighters and only the uneducated think that the UFC would negotiate away their right to set up events.

But it is also extremely hard for fighters to negotiate with the UFC because they don't have options and impossible for them to negotiate benefits for their future. These are things we have seen athlete unions provide for their members.

Yes, profits would go down if they increased benefits, but that doesn't prove that Zuffa would stop investing in the company. And it's completely dishonest to overlook the positives that these unions have had for organized sports and the billions of dollars that other organizations make while having unions.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

[QUOTE=Aas Gut

 

[Geordie "Shadow" Munro]

Anyone who dislikes Pettis vs Aldo hates life in general.

 

[kflo]

I very clearly referred to guy that actually did call everyone morons.

Again, make that argument with the TS, because I agreed with that already.

Things have definitely improved, but that doesn't prove that things can't be made better, quicker or that the progress will continue relative to the sport's success. The UFC has a ton of control over their fighters and only the uneducated think that the UFC would negotiate away their right to set up events.

But it is also extremely hard for fighters to negotiate with the UFC because they don't have options and impossible for them to negotiate benefits for their future. These are things we have seen athlete unions provide for their members.

Yes, profits would go down if they increased benefits, but that doesn't prove that Zuffa would stop investing in the company. And it's completely dishonest to overlook the positives that these unions have had for organized sports and the billions of dollars that other organizations make while having unions.

you are talking about sports with completely different economies and circumstances. if one franchise in a sports league fails, it moves, gets sold or folds. it happens all the time. investors enter with the rules in place, and get to bargain for future changes. the ufc is one individual investor. again, one investor that has increased their commitment, payroll, benefits, costs. expanded alot.

unions have done positives, and they've done negatives. it's different in established leagues with lucrative long term contracts with networks and advertisers. the ufc still makes most of its money from show to show.

fighters leverage is tied to the overall popularity of the sport and what they've done in it.

 

[ISWThunder]

you are talking about sports with completely different economies and circumstances. if one franchise in a sports league fails, it moves, gets sold or folds. it happens all the time. investors enter with the rules in place, and get to bargain for future changes. the ufc is one individual investor. again, one investor that has increased their commitment, payroll, benefits, costs. expanded alot.

unions have done positives, and they've done negatives. it's different in established leagues with lucrative long term contracts with networks and advertisers. the ufc still makes most of its money from show to show.

fighters leverage is tied to the overall popularity of the sport and what they've done in it.

Nobody is doubting that Zuffa takes more risk than the owner of a more established sports organization/business. But you are just pretending to know their financial situation and how much a fighter's union would cut into their profits and delay their expenditures. Fighters also take a ton of risks and they need protection, as well.

The first CBA between the NFL and NFLPA was in 1968, before the merger and Super Bowl I and huge revenue gains followed. The union did not slow the progress of the sport. You can't just pretend that the NFL union was created under the current market conditions. In that CBA, a pension program was created and minimum salaries were guaranteed.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

God, socialism at the UFC

 

[Fahrenheit1221]

Why do fans bitch about good fights? Can someone explain this to me?

 

[ISWThunder]

Why do fans bitch about good fights? Can someone explain this to me?

The same reason that a huge NFL fan screams for days when there is a bad call by a referee. You don't say, "ohh well, we'll get 'em next time" or "It happens to everyone."

Fans feel a connection with fighters and the belts, so they feel personally slighted when someone they feel is "undeserving" based on their own, personal criteria.

 

[kflo]

Nobody is doubting that Zuffa takes more risk than the owner of a more established sports organization/business. But you are just pretending to know their financial situation and how much a fighter's union would cut into their profits and delay their expenditures. Fighters also take a ton of risks and they need protection, as well.

The first CBA between the NFL and NFLPA was in 1968, before the merger and Super Bowl I and huge revenue gains followed. The union did not slow the progress of the sport. You can't just pretend that the NFL union was created under the current market conditions. In that CBA, a pension program was created and minimum salaries were guaranteed.

again, it's very different circumstances. if the fighters think organizing is in their best interest, they should do so. i don't think it's smart, and i don't think it benefits them long term. again, the ufc is 1 company. not a collection of franchises.

 

[Scoop]

No organization representing the fighters? I don't think Pettis is complaining... Who gets the job in any company isn't decided by some union, it's decided by the boss. Silly thread.

 

[ISWThunder]

again, it's very different circumstances. if the fighters think organizing is in their best interest, they should do so. i don't think it's smart, and i don't think it benefits them long term. again, the ufc is 1 company. not a collection of franchises.

Why don't you think it benefits them long term? Fighters currently have no pension program and that's one of the first things a union would fight for. It will definitely affect the UFC's profit margin, but it's impossible to guess to what extent.

You keep saying how the NFL is different, but you haven't pointed out how it effects the union itself. Yes, they are negotiating with one single entity and not 32, but that is an advantage for NFL players and a detriment to MMA fighters. Having one single entity to negotiate with makes it more important for fighters to present a unified front in negotiations.

Fighters are extremely limited in their ability to negotiate because a single fighter has very little leverage and the UFC has a lot of control over contractual standards. You can say that as a fighter gains more popularity, then they gain more leverage, but the UFC has a tremendous amount of control over the pace at which a fighter becomes popular.

 

[PabloZed]

No organization representing the fighters? I don't think Pettis is complaining... Who gets the job in any company isn't decided by some union, it's decided by the boss. Silly thread.

When you grow up you will learn how the real world works.

 

[xelad1]

LOL. It is not about me crying or being upset. I'd like to see the fight. I am thinking of the fighters who are being passed over - unfairly.

It isn't considered unfair when a top ranked fighter wants to drop down a weight class. Sonnen vs. Jones is a good example, Pettis vs. Aldo is not.

 

[Legendary]

but i'm not calling everyone a moron.

the circumstances of the workers is steadily IMPROVING. the idea that pettis getting a title shot is a reason for a union is actually pretty dumb, imo. which is what this thread started as.

this is a sport with one company that has steadily been bringing up the standard for fighters. more fighters, more money, more benefits. if you saddle the company with labor demands, costs, etc, you take AWAY the incentive of the investors (owners) to put more into the company. take AWAY the ability of management to put together events as they see best for the company. i just don't see how that is in the best interest long term of the fighters at this time.

Thats why the NFLPA sure took away the incentive from the NFL.
Typical conservative.

Its in the best interest of the fighters because it doesn't allow the UFC to dictate unfair deals. Ian McCall got paid 9k for his last fight and he is a big name.

 

[FlyThaiPie]

Pettis Aldo is cool beans but yeah it does suck that FW has 3 guys on the cusp of a title shot and Dana is giving these shots to LWs. I think the Kenflo treatment is needed where the fighter faces a top ten guy first before getting the champ

 

[Ichibanner]

Another manner? Like collective bargaining? I love that unions, to you, are just striking and whining.

A fighter's union is a legitimate strategy and none of your points are arguments against it. The UFC would be in shitty shape if every MMA fighter that couldn't pay his bills just quit.

Nobody is saying that they should all be paid the same or that Anderson Silva shouldn't make millions. Many professional athletes are a part of a union and they still make excellent money, and the stars make tremendous money.

Unions aren't just striking and whining. They're also driving up cost of product, threatening those who just want/need a job but must cross picket lines to do so, capable of taking dollars from your paycheck to fund the Ford F-350 Super Duty King Ranch Cowboy Cadillac of the Union Boss, and pretty much unnecessary in this day and age. Why? Because there were unsanitary and downright dangerous working conditions that our forefathers worked in. Often working for pay that wasn't commensurate to the health risk or hours worked. Coal Miners, Meat Packers, Steel Workers, etc needed change. That change came through various means including unions but more importantly by local, state, and federal law which is still in place. Do welding at your job? OSHA and other bodies mandate ventilation, personal protection, safety devices, and such. Want to drive a forklift? Same thing.

Unions serve special interests. You MUST pay union dues. Who benefits? The Union President of course. The employer can only negotiate salary with ONE party when a union is in house. How is that fair? If you are union, have a GED, and want $30/hr to put a set of hinges on a car door plus medical, dental, and pension why shouldn't an employer be able to hire someone with a High School Diploma, on their spouse's med/dental, wanting a less expensive 401k plan, and willing to do the same job (and be grateful for it) at $25/hr?

Want to smoke up a bit and eat a Twinkie? Ha ha. Good luck with that. The baker's union wasn't content with earning a paycheck, getting a few more perks in their contract, and being able to put Christmas gifts under the tree, fuel in the car, and a house payment to the bank. Nope. Time to get canned and apply for unemployment and possibly welfare or look for a job. Maybe in a right to work state this time? Was it over 18,000 workers that were out of work for Christmas when Hostess was granted bankruptcy by a judge?

Please tell me how great and/or necessary unions are in this day and age and in this economy. Let companies hire those willing to work for a fair wage, don't FORCE a company to do business with bullies who want high pay for unskilled labor.

 

[The Real Pedro]

The UFC is not now, nor has it EVER been a meritocracy. I'm a Hendo fan, and while it sucks that he missed out on his chance (due to an injury - not being passed over) welcome to the real world.

A union won't change this. The union can't do anything about the matchups - it would involve things like fighter safety, pay and benefits. Things which, for the most part, the UFC has made remarkable strides in over the last few years. But if you think a union is going to mean no more Jones v. Sonnen mismatches - then you're dead wrong. The CAW doesn't decide which cars to produce. Or have any input on new designs.

If it's meritocracy we're after, then unions are the last thing we want. Unions are good at several things, like preventing exploitation and improving working conditions. But they also have their down sides. One of which is they never, ever produce a meritocratic environment. Workers in unions are paid based on seniority. Always. Not by how good they are at their jobs.

The UFC is not an absolute meritocracy, (which has never and will never exist) but like most pro sports, it's more meritocratic than almost anything else you'll ever encounter in life.

 

[cooks1]

If it's meritocracy we're after, then unions are the last thing we want. Unions are good at several things, like preventing exploitation and improving working conditions. But they also have their down sides. One of which is they never, ever produce a meritocratic environment. Workers in unions are paid based on seniority. Always. Not by how good they are at their jobs.

The UFC is not an absolute meritocracy, (which has never and will never exist) but like most pro sports, it's more meritocratic than almost anything else you'll ever encounter in life.

Precisely.

One need look not further than any school to see the folly of using unions to drive merit based promotions and positions. Something like 1 of every 1000 teachers get fired.

 

[ISWThunder]

Unions aren't just striking and whining. They're also driving up cost of product, threatening those who just want/need a job but must cross picket lines to do so, capable of taking dollars from your paycheck to fund the Ford F-350 Super Duty King Ranch Cowboy Cadillac of the Union Boss, and pretty much unnecessary in this day and age. Why? Because there were unsanitary and downright dangerous working conditions that our forefathers worked in. Often working for pay that wasn't commensurate to the health risk or hours worked. Coal Miners, Meat Packers, Steel Workers, etc needed change. That change came through various means including unions but more importantly by local, state, and federal law which is still in place. Do welding at your job? OSHA and other bodies mandate ventilation, personal protection, safety devices, and such. Want to drive a forklift? Same thing.

Unions serve special interests. You MUST pay union dues. Who benefits? The Union President of course. The employer can only negotiate salary with ONE party when a union is in house. How is that fair? If you are union, have a GED, and want $30/hr to put a set of hinges on a car door plus medical, dental, and pension why shouldn't an employer be able to hire someone with a High School Diploma, on their spouse's med/dental, wanting a less expensive 401k plan, and willing to do the same job (and be grateful for it) at $25/hr?

Want to smoke up a bit and eat a Twinkie? Ha ha. Good luck with that. The baker's union wasn't content with earning a paycheck, getting a few more perks in their contract, and being able to put Christmas gifts under the tree, fuel in the car, and a house payment to the bank. Nope. Time to get canned and apply for unemployment and possibly welfare or look for a job. Maybe in a right to work state this time? Was it over 18,000 workers that were out of work for Christmas when Hostess was granted bankruptcy by a judge?

Please tell me how great and/or necessary unions are in this day and age and in this economy. Let companies hire those willing to work for a fair wage, don't FORCE a company to do business with bullies who want high pay for unskilled labor.

Is the bolded part an argument for or against a fighter's union? Fighters definitely take health risks and many people would argue that lower tier fighters are not paid commensurate with the time they put in or the skills they have.

You are so obviously dug in, that it would be silly to try and debate the topic with you.

But there are plenty of examples of unions doing great work in the world of professional sports and we're not talking Chicago in 1900.

What does the plight of unskilled workers have to do with the negotiations of highly skilled workers (MMA fighters)?