people dont always stand up with rustam chsiev

[rmongler]

OK. If I am understanding you correctly, you'r saying that the underhook, while perhaps less intuitive and more awkward to untrained individuals, is actually a superior position to the tricep/collar tie; that what you give up in marginal snapdown power you gain in versatility and control.

I was wondering if a tricep collar tie was superior positioning (at least for the snapdown and fireman's) compared to an underhook in part due to Rustam's video. He likes to work from the tricep collar tie and his snaps and fireman's carries are highly effective. The fireman's seems to be more awkward to pull from an underhook, so I was considering prioritizing the tricep collar tie above the underhook despite what I guess to be fewer offensive options and a highly counterable move (fireman's = crucifix).

I'm new to wrestling so figuring out the positional hierarchy has been challenging. Generally, double underhooks and front headlock seem to be superior positions due to the control and small number of high percentage counters the positions offer, but these positions are generally hard to get. Everything else seems like kind of a grey area, particularly whether one has the overhook or underhook. It seems like the skill gap doesn't need to be that big for someone with an overhook to reasonably counter or even attack the guy with the underhook. It's not like BJJ where mount, side control, and the back are objectively superior positions to any other kind of position.

In BJJ there are also certain things you generally can't do from certain positions. No one is really going to try to americana you from guard. Wrestling is much more fluid and indiscrete., any tie up can lead to a desired takedown and this seems to be in fact what many wrestlers do. Perhaps this is analogous to being able to hit an armbar from many places.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer.

Most (counter)attacks with an overhook are predicated on your opponent pressing into you first (a notable exception being a step around/polish throw/ko soto gari), while with an underhook you can be more proactive (which is a bonus in sub grappling competitions since almost noone is proactive in neutral). An underhook plus collar tie is a strong position for snapdowns since you are blocking him from getting a collar tie on both sides, leaving him with weaker 'anchors' to stop downwards movement of his body relative to your body. (One could even use it for jumping into a triangle choke, like Shoeface did to Gary Tonon.)

You can put a lot of torque into an elbow/tricep tie, which is a secondary grip i see as valuable after the underhook (and is also a counter to someone looking for a collar tie or bicep tie, another very common 'reflexive' grip) and what you are probably seeing when Rustam throws people by. This would be the main grip you would use to set up things like firemans or duck unders. A 'firemans' from an underhook would really just be an easier high crotch entry.

It's all not to say you can't snap people with an overtie (overtie, not overhook) too if the opportunity is there, though in that case it tends to be used less as a self-contained 'finish' in of it self, and more like series of 'jabs', used to draw reactions and set up another finish (like shooting on their hips after they pop up from the snap). In my view the bigger value there tends to be in taking a more 'oblique' angle with the motion. That is to say...

























(As you can tell, regional dialectical differences are definitely in play, but the essence is the same)

 

[asian-glow]

Most (counter)attacks with an overhook are predicated on your opponent pressing into you first (a notable exception being a step around/polish throw/ko soto gari), while with an underhook you can be more proactive (which is a bonus in sub grappling competitions since almost noone is proactive in neutral). An underhook plus collar tie is a strong position for snapdowns since you are blocking him from getting a collar tie on both sides, leaving him with weaker 'anchors' to stop downwards movement of his body relative to your body. (One could even use it for jumping into a triangle choke, like Shoeface did to Gary Tonon.)

You can put a lot of torque into an elbow/tricep tie, which is a secondary grip i see as valuable after the underhook (and is also a counter to someone looking for a collar tie or bicep tie, another very common 'reflexive' grip) and what you are probably seeing when Rustam throws people by. This would be the main grip you would use to set up things like firemans or duck unders. A 'firemans' from an underhook would really just be an easier high crotch entry.

It's all not to say you can't snap people with an overtie (overtie, not overhook) too if the opportunity is there, though in that case it tends to be used less as a self-contained 'finish' in of it self, and more like series of 'jabs', used to draw reactions and set up another finish (like shooting on their hips after they pop up from the snap). In my view the bigger value there tends to be in taking a more 'oblique' angle with the motion. That is to say...

























(As you can tell, regional dialectical differences are definitely in play, but the essence is the same)

Thank you. I've managed to snapdown some of the people I've been rolling with, some of whom are wrestlers.

I'll continue to combine it with my other options from the underhook.

I've gained a lot of knowledge and practical skills from your posts. Thank you!