People claiming side on-stances won't work in full contact - explain Stephen Thompson

[rmongler]

I think it's because they train in it but they're not good at it. For example, Woodley has been a wrestler for his whole career. Spending time working on low kicks to kick Stephen's leg isn't smart. There's no way he's gonna learn how to do it effectively enough in months, when Stephen has been defending leg kicks from better strikers even in his bladed stance for years.

I've seen this sort of meme pop up in a lot of mma discussions and its something of a pet peeve of mine, so im quoting you but really speaking in general.

There might be something of an argument for this line of thought if you're like, 2-3 mouths away from a fight and already literally in camp, but it starts falling apart any more beyond that. Then its just another 'only a few months', and another, and another, and so on.

If something is good, then its good, and you do it, because its good.

Its like showing up at a kickboxing gym and saying 'well all these guys have spent so long on kicking so its better to just focus only on my hands'.

Its like showing up at a judo club and saying 'well these guys have been doing kuzushi for so long so its better to just do sacrifice throws',

Its like, imagine you've got this karate dude who wants to do mma, and he says 'some of these guys have been doing wrestling since high school so its pointless to waste time trying to stop them rather than focusing on what i know best, whats my game plan?' Lose, thats what your gameplan is.

If someone is better than you at best practices, then more or less hes just better, and chances are you'd lose anyways using a more marginal strategy too.

 

[Universal Kombat]

I've seen this sort of meme pop up in a lot of mma discussions and its something of a pet peeve of mine, so im quoting you but really speaking in general.

There might be something of an argument for this line of thought if you're like, 2-3 mouths away from a fight and already literally in camp, but it starts falling apart any more beyond that. Then its just another 'only a few months', and another, and another, and so on.

If something is good, then its good, and you do it, because its good.

Its like showing up at a kickboxing gym and saying 'well all these guys have spent so long on kicking so its better to just focus only on my hands'.

Its like showing up at a judo club and saying 'well these guys have been doing kuzushi for so long so its better to just do sacrifice throws',

Its like, imagine you've got this karate dude who wants to do mma, and he says 'some of these guys have been doing wrestling since high school so its pointless to waste time trying to stop them rather than focusing on what i know best, whats my game plan?' Lose, thats what your gameplan is.

If someone is better than you at best practices, then hes just better, and chances are you'd lose anyways using a more marginal strategy too.

There might be something of an argument for your line of thought, if we were talking about JUST a kickboxing gym, or JUST a judo gym. The difference being, in those particular specific sports, you have to conform to the rules, and to the limited way the fights go, to be successful. If you join a kickboxing gym, and kick against the kickboxer...you'll lose but you'll learn in sparring, so there's nothing wrong with that. But in an amateur or professional fight, you'll just lose, something these guys can't afford to do. Which is why you join the school, spend countless years training, getting your ass whooped in sparring, and THEN you join a fight and kick against the kickboxer (something I'm sure Woodley this late in his career might not do). Luckily for him, In MMA though, you have a hell of a lot more freedom with how you're going to win your fight, here, you can use whatever style you've been training for your whole life openly. It would only make sense, that a fighter spends his camp training to maximize what he already feels comfortable in, and using that come fight time. Sure, you also have to fill your gaps, but that takes a long time. You can't seriously tell me, that it's a good idea for the next wrestler that strikes with McGregor for example, to start trying to out-strike McG with boxing, because he trained for one year or a couple of months of total boxing training? Unless he's been striking for as long as or close to as McGregor has, he has very little chance of implementing it, and most likely he'll just create opportunities for the veteran striker. Or for McG to start trying to out-wrestle Khabib for instance, after all, wrestling is good, and he can, and should do it, because it's good, right? In MMA, a guy can be WAY better than you at something like submissions, wrestling, striking, etc, but if you avoid his gameplan and implement yours where he is weak, you'll most likely win. That's the beauty of MMA.

If woodley, a guy who's never focused on his kicks from what we can tell, trained three months to land kicks on Wonderboy... how successful do you think they would be? Considering, Wonderboy has been handling those type of kicks from way better strikers (who have done it for years) for most of his career? I can think of very little exceptions/examples, if any, where a fighter of a completely different style, showed up after a camp, and dominated a fighter with "good moves" from the opponents main style.

 

[rmongler]

If you join a kickboxing gym, and kick against the kickboxer...you'll lose but you'll learn in sparring, so there's nothing wrong with that.

This is precisely the point; if you want to do mma, join an mma gym, and do mma against the mma fighters. You'll lose, but you'll learn in sparring, so there's nothing wrong with that.

You can't seriously tell me, that it's a good idea for the next wrestler that strikes with McGregor for example, to start trying to out-strike McG with boxing, because he trained for one year or a couple of months of total boxing training? Unless he's been striking for as long as or close to as McGregor has, he has very little chance of implementing it, and most likely he'll just create opportunities for the veteran striker. Or for McG to start trying to out-wrestle Khabib for instance, after all, wrestling is good, and he can, and should do it, because it's good, right?

If woodley, a guy who's never focused on his kicks from what we can tell, trained three months to land kicks on Wonderboy... how successful do you think they would be?

Not the point, the point is you start yesterday, so you will be good. If it keeps getting put off since 'well im only a couple months out', and then the time rolls around and its 'well im just another couple month out' again... you'll never make it.

If the question is 'how do i fight a guy with better fundamentals than me?' The answer is 'you fucked up a long time ago'.

And aside, you can avoid someones striking, certainly. You can avoid someones submissions, certainly. There's no avoiding wrestling though, because that is the very thing you are using to avoid or manipulate those situations.

 

[Stillw1ll]

The reason Thompson got dropped and lost to wonderboy is because he backed straight up in that ugly stance, a cardinal sin in boxing. Even though Woodley is not an exceptional boxer he was still able to take advantage and drop him, which probably won him the fight.

Hit an angle instead of backing straight up

 

[RichardN7]

He is literally kicking ass with a TKD/Kickboxing side on-stance. Yet people always claim low kicks will demolish any such stances and that TKD guys would have to change it.


Explain then Thompsons success in full contact free fighting, please...

He was outstruck by a wrestle-boxer in Woodley, whose trainer is none other than Duke Roufus, one of the first to realize the disadvantages of a side-on stance.
Wonderboy just hasn't come across a skilled thai-style kickboxer yet. Don't get me wrong, I like him and his style is fun to watch, but very easily exploited.

 

[j123]

The reason Thompson got dropped and lost to wonderboy is because he backed straight up in that ugly stance, a cardinal sin in boxing. Even though Woodley is not an exceptional boxer he was still able to take advantage and drop him, which probably won him the fight.

Hit an angle instead of backing straight up

Yeah. Besides, backstepping is never going to outrun someone pursuing forward.

 

[rmongler]

Its comparing and contrasting moments like that that make you have to appreciate the talent McGregor has; Eddie is cast from a similar mold as Woodley, and even looked like to deploy a similar game plan.

Only, every time he moved to step in for a big shot, instead of backpedaling, Conor raised him 1; pulled the trigger with zero hesitation and beat him to the punch every time.

There's a close point where you end up respecting (rather, fearing) your opponent too much; retreating every time Eddie came forward would have just played into his hands, like it played into Woodleys hands, vs both Thompson and Lawler.

 

[Alanf7]

There might be something of an argument for your line of thought, if we were talking about JUST a kickboxing gym, or JUST a judo gym. The difference being, in those particular specific sports, you have to conform to the rules, and to the limited way the fights go, to be successful. If you join a kickboxing gym, and kick against the kickboxer...you'll lose but you'll learn in sparring, so there's nothing wrong with that. But in an amateur or professional fight, you'll just lose, something these guys can't afford to do. Which is why you join the school, spend countless years training, getting your ass whooped in sparring, and THEN you join a fight and kick against the kickboxer (something I'm sure Woodley this late in his career might not do). Luckily for him, In MMA though, you have a hell of a lot more freedom with how you're going to win your fight, here, you can use whatever style you've been training for your whole life openly. It would only make sense, that a fighter spends his camp training to maximize what he already feels comfortable in, and using that come fight time. Sure, you also have to fill your gaps, but that takes a long time. You can't seriously tell me, that it's a good idea for the next wrestler that strikes with McGregor for example, to start trying to out-strike McG with boxing, because he trained for one year or a couple of months of total boxing training? Unless he's been striking for as long as or close to as McGregor has, he has very little chance of implementing it, and most likely he'll just create opportunities for the veteran striker. Or for McG to start trying to out-wrestle Khabib for instance, after all, wrestling is good, and he can, and should do it, because it's good, right? In MMA, a guy can be WAY better than you at something like submissions, wrestling, striking, etc, but if you avoid his gameplan and implement yours where he is weak, you'll most likely win. That's the beauty of MMA.

If woodley, a guy who's never focused on his kicks from what we can tell, trained three months to land kicks on Wonderboy... how successful do you think they would be? Considering, Wonderboy has been handling those type of kicks from way better strikers (who have done it for years) for most of his career? I can think of very little exceptions/examples, if any, where a fighter of a completely different style, showed up after a camp, and dominated a fighter with "good moves" from the opponents main style.

Woodley used to train with Cordeiro and he has devastating leg kicks. Don't know where it comes from that he can't leg kick well?

 

[Universal Kombat]

Woodley used to train with Cordeiro and he has devastating leg kicks. Don't know where it comes from that he can't leg kick well?

Probably from the fact that he doesn't kick often in his fights. Really, the only time we saw him kick to any effectiveness was against Condit, but that injury was a freak injury and probably wouldn't happen even once out of 20 fights (just double checked read that it happened from a takedown never mind). He also doesn't kick often, when fighters don't pursue a move often, it's mostly because they're uncomfortable doing it. You mentioned his kicking is devastating, but Kicking hard, and kicking with technique and good timing are completely different things. If he learned to kick some more he would definitely be adding a great weapon to his arsenal. But as it is, he doesn't really kick. But hey, almost no one in the UFC really kicks often except for a few particular fighters.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

There might be something of an argument for your line of thought, if we were talking about JUST a kickboxing gym, or JUST a judo gym. The difference being, in those particular specific sports, you have to conform to the rules, and to the limited way the fights go, to be successful. If you join a kickboxing gym, and kick against the kickboxer...you'll lose but you'll learn in sparring, so there's nothing wrong with that. But in an amateur or professional fight, you'll just lose, something these guys can't afford to do. Which is why you join the school, spend countless years training, getting your ass whooped in sparring, and THEN you join a fight and kick against the kickboxer (something I'm sure Woodley this late in his career might not do). Luckily for him, In MMA though, you have a hell of a lot more freedom with how you're going to win your fight, here, you can use whatever style you've been training for your whole life openly. It would only make sense, that a fighter spends his camp training to maximize what he already feels comfortable in, and using that come fight time. Sure, you also have to fill your gaps, but that takes a long time. You can't seriously tell me, that it's a good idea for the next wrestler that strikes with McGregor for example, to start trying to out-strike McG with boxing, because he trained for one year or a couple of months of total boxing training? Unless he's been striking for as long as or close to as McGregor has, he has very little chance of implementing it, and most likely he'll just create opportunities for the veteran striker. Or for McG to start trying to out-wrestle Khabib for instance, after all, wrestling is good, and he can, and should do it, because it's good, right? In MMA, a guy can be WAY better than you at something like submissions, wrestling, striking, etc, but if you avoid his gameplan and implement yours where he is weak, you'll most likely win. That's the beauty of MMA.

If woodley, a guy who's never focused on his kicks from what we can tell, trained three months to land kicks on Wonderboy... how successful do you think they would be? Considering, Wonderboy has been handling those type of kicks from way better strikers (who have done it for years) for most of his career? I can think of very little exceptions/examples, if any, where a fighter of a completely different style, showed up after a camp, and dominated a fighter with "good moves" from the opponents main style.

Counter takedowns aren't always a bad thing. Cowboy uses them a lot, Holm did against Rousey. If you can make your opponent scared to advance by using a takedown and then immediately standing up or beating on them for a little bit, then there's a lot of benefit to shooting a takedown on a better wrestler. Obviously there's a time and a place for it

 

[spacetime]

Isn't it unrealistic to think that thompson never sparred a Thai fighter in camp`? You guys seriously think that the is woefully ignorant and willl one day wake up to leg kicks by a thai fighter?

 

[Universal Kombat]

Counter takedowns aren't always a bad thing. Cowboy uses them a lot, Holm did against Rousey. If you can make your opponent scared to advance by using a takedown and then immediately standing up or beating on them for a little bit, then there's a lot of benefit to shooting a takedown on a better wrestler. Obviously there's a time and a place for it

I will agree, even Conor has taken fights to the ground and/or followed them there. There is definitely a time and place for everything regardless of what martial background you come from. But of course, one thing most people seem to ignore, is that even strikers like McG, or Cowboy, train their grappling in camps to a great extent.