Pavel Tsatsouline

[Hotora86]

It's likely a combination of disseminating disk disease with a radiating nerve altercation to the shoulder. Usually my chiro can adjust it with vertical hold tuning.

Actually been to a chiro in 2008 - went from 5 mm to 7 mm bulge. Don't trust chiros since then, sorry.

 

[Hotora86]

I've read those books many years ago too. Helped me achieve a full split stretch too. But the only advice I can give you is to go to a doctor. And maybe do reverse hyperextensions to strengthen the back.

I do those and some other things so the back muscles are in OK shape. Just worried about stretching since I haven't done any since 2008 and I can't even lift a leg to 90 degrees.

 

[Dream Evil]

His books have some decent info, but they're 90% empty space. It's a ripoff.

 

[Cmart]

Sorry, I guess?

I've seen two dozen doctors, every one has a different opinion. The books were actually recommended to me by a physical therapist, albeit a very young and healthy one.

What's your point? You can't get good advice from doctors, can't trust books, so now you've opened up your search for information to internet forums? For one thing, that's asinine. And yeah, it's against the rules here.

 

[Codger]

what amounts to soliciting medical advice.

Jeez, he's just asking for some general advice and he's already seeing therapists.

if you have chronic back pain then you'll know that no easy treatment exists and even good modern medicine has a shitty track record with it. It's just one of those things that they've not solved yet.

My advice is this - just be careful with your back and take things slow and easy. Be extra careful with forward bends and don't do anything that makes it hurt at the time or afterwards.

I've lived with pretty serious disk disease for decades and you sometimes just have to accept that some exercises are too dangerous for you. I stopped squatting and DLing ages ago and I won't put myself into forward bends beloved by so many yoga and flexibility instructors. That means I'm not as flexible as I'd like but on plus side, I'm not in hospital like I used to be.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Actually been to a chiro in 2008 - went from 5 mm to 7 mm bulge. Don't trust chiros since then, sorry.

Yeah, the v-hold tuning is annoying AF. So glad the efficacy of the synchronization circuits, plus the inherent stability of the sets' oscillators, had been improved to the point where the v-hold and H-Hold for that matter controls were no longer necessary.

 

[Hotora86]

His books have some decent info, but they're 90% empty space. It's a ripoff.

I kinda feel the same having read through. He's constantly plugging his other books, it's annoying AF.

BTW, DREAM EVIL? Look at my av!

 

[Hotora86]

What's your point? You can't get good advice from doctors, can't trust books, so now you've opened up your search for information to internet forums? For one thing, that's asinine. And yeah, it's against the rules here.

Oh please excuse me, great and powerful Cmart!
*begins self flagellation*

 

[Hotora86]

Jeez, he's just asking for some general advice and he's already seeing therapists.

if you have chronic back pain then you'll know that no easy treatment exists and even good modern medicine has a shitty track record with it. It's just one of those things that they've not solved yet.

My advice is this - just be careful with your back and take things slow and easy. Be extra careful with forward bends and don't do anything that makes it hurt at the time or afterwards.

I've lived with pretty serious disk disease for decades and you sometimes just have to accept that some exercises are too dangerous for you. I stopped squatting and DLing ages ago and I won't put myself into forward bends beloved by so many yoga and flexibility instructors. That means I'm not as flexible as I'd like but on plus side, I'm not in hospital like I used to be.

Finally, some sensible advice. Thanks man!

I've stopped DLing in 2008 and I do squats with a aerobics ball - it's pretty safe IMHO. You should try it.

 

[Hotora86]

Yeah, the v-hold tuning is annoying AF. So glad the efficacy of the synchronization circuits, plus the inherent stability of the sets' oscillators, had been improved to the point where the v-hold and H-Hold for that matter controls were no longer necessary.

Stop it boxxy!

 

[Cmart]

Jeez, he's just asking for some general advice and he's already seeing therapists.

if you have chronic back pain then you'll know that no easy treatment exists and even good modern medicine has a shitty track record with it. It's just one of those things that they've not solved yet.

My advice is this - just be careful with your back and take things slow and easy. Be extra careful with forward bends and don't do anything that makes it hurt at the time or afterwards.

I've lived with pretty serious disk disease for decades and you sometimes just have to accept that some exercises are too dangerous for you. I stopped squatting and DLing ages ago and I won't put myself into forward bends beloved by so many yoga and flexibility instructors. That means I'm not as flexible as I'd like but on plus side, I'm not in hospital like I used to be.

I bet there's a perfectly good forum somewhere where people can complain about their injuries and ask about treatments for them. This is ostensibly a strength and conditioning forum, and there's a posted list of prohibited topics which includes injury threads. Why? Sherdog's prerogative, liability, people don't want to read about that shit, lots of reasons. I personally don't want to have to navigate past a bunch of crap about "My _______ is sore" or "I think I have a torn ______, should I still lift?" So I'll sometimes take the time to kindly remind the poster.

Anyone can make a mistake or be unaware of the rules and preferences of a forum, no big deal.

Oh please excuse me, great and powerful Cmart!
*begins self flagellation*

Of course, if someone's just being an obtuse asshole, their reward is that they get to demonstrate that they're that kind of person. Have at it. Good luck with your infirmity.

 

[Hotora86]

I bet there's a perfectly good forum somewhere where people can complain about their injuries and ask about treatments for them. This is ostensibly a strength and conditioning forum, and there's a posted list of prohibited topics which includes injury threads. Why? Sherdog's prerogative, liability, people don't want to read about that shit, lots of reasons. I personally don't want to have to navigate past a bunch of crap about "My _______ is sore" or "I think I have a torn ______, should I still lift?" So I'll sometimes take the time to kindly remind the poster.

Anyone can make a mistake or be unaware of the rules and preferences of a forum, no big deal.

Of course, if someone's just being an obtuse asshole, their reward is that they get to demonstrate that they're that kind of person. Have at it. Good luck with your infirmity.

Look, I even apologized and tried being funny to de-escalate but now I'm an "obtuse asshole"? Nice way to "kindly remind the poster".

This was never an "injury thread", mind you. My first and foremost question was about Pavel and his two books: Relax into Stretch and The Naked Warrior and ALSO how safe they are for someone with a back and shoulder issue. Would you like to comment on the books? I'd be much pleased to know your opinion, since you seem to be the expert around here.

@Dream Evil actually commented on the books, for which I thank him.

Again, I don't want to break the rules or annoy anyone. Sorry for posting about my injuries, not gonna happen again. I read the rules, I accept them, all is well. Let's focus on the books now, shall we?

 

[Cmart]

Look, I even apologized and tried being funny to de-escalate but now I'm an "obtuse asshole"? Nice way to "kindly remind the poster".

This was never an "injury thread", mind you. My first and foremost question was about Pavel and his two books: Relax into Stretch and The Naked Warrior and ALSO how safe they are for someone with a back and shoulder issue. Would you like to comment on the books? I'd be much pleased to know your opinion, since you seem to be the expert around here.

@Dream Evil actually commented on the books, for which I thank him.

Again, I don't want to break the rules or annoy anyone. Sorry for posting about my injuries, not gonna happen again. I read the rules, I accept them, all is well. Let's focus on the books now, shall we?

Fine. The three Pavel books I have are Relax into Stretch, Power to the People, and Enter the Kettlebell. I found them all to be funny, informative to a degree, overpriced, and simple. Simple doesn't mean bad but there are times when I wished I was getting more information. It's been a while since I've re-read any of them, but if I recall correctly:

Relax into Stretch -- Anyone can do the full splits, just look at the pictures of me doing them, front to back, side to side, anyone can do it. Go ahead. Do it. What are you waiting for, do it.

Power to the People -- all you need is deadlifts and overhead presses. Short, intense workouts. Sets of five. Don't go to failure. Eat your vatrushka and wear a fur hat, comrade!

Enter the Kettlebell -- all you need is a kettlebell. Swing that thing. Lift it overhead. Some people are very good at this and look at them, they are fit. Spetsnaz.

Or spend $75 on Amazon. I don't regret buying them but they are simple and perhaps better to borrow than to buy.

There's lots of his stuff I subscribe to that works for me personally, like short intense workouts without failure, which has always worked better for me than long, grueling sessions. But maybe I'm just not committed enough to do the splits because no fucking way, and I have a few kettlebells and I like them but they're not a panacea. Of course if you have limiting conditions or injuries, you don't want any advice at all that doesn't include "Go get checked and cleared first before you try this stuff or you could cripple yourself." If you've exhausted all reasonable sources of advice and are just winging it at this point, go ahead and try stuff that Pavel recommends. His advice is solid, if a little thin on substance, and you could do worse than following his principles.

 

[Hotora86]

Relax into Stretch -- Anyone can do the full splits, just look at the pictures of me doing them, front to back, side to side, anyone can do it. Go ahead. Do it. What are you waiting for, do it.

Thank you.
Quoting the part that made me LOL - but you are spot on, that's exactly how it sounds. Like it's that easy - just try and you can do it. It's kinda ridiculous, if you ask me, he tries to explain the relaxed stretch scientifically but... it doesn't work.

"Try doing the split, wait until the muscles give up and let you do it. If they aren't letting you - tense them up to max so that they get tired and let go. Done!" - that's the whole damn book in 2 sentences.

 

[Oblivian]

Lol I forgot about Diesel Weasel.

 

[Sano]

Thanks?

7 mm hernia in L4/L5 caused by heavy lifting (with shit form), later collapsed down, making it 4 mm horizontal + 3 vertical (vertical isn't an issue tho). Had tractions in 2009 and physical therapy 1 month per year since 2010. Pain radiates to the left leg, gets worse when the weather changes. Been doing specific exercises + McKenzie since 2010. Actually got better since then and I'm still avoiding the scalpel.

Shoulder popped out in Judo and BJJ back in the day, then started popping out while swimming. MRI found no significant changes but it still hurts and pops out if I'm not careful. Had physical therapy multiple times, only helps for a short while. Recently got some nice exercises from my new therapist to strengthen the stabilizing muscles, doing that daily.

@Codger made some good points. It's very hard to specificly suggest anything for chronic LBP. It's such a tricky thing. Even with knowing that it's a L4/L5 hernia on the left side with nerve root compression (whether it's posteolateral or not), there's still no specific exercise that works for all. The symptoms both neurologically and in regards to pain are also incredibly individual. Some patients show several big hernias on an MR, but have no symptoms at all. Others have a small protrusion and are riddled with pain.

This study really displays how much we don't know about especially pain yet:

I'm glad the McKenzie exercies are working out for you somewhat. I'm guessing you are on an extension protocol (on your stomach arching your back pushing the elbows/hands into the floor etc.), or do you have another direction preference? It can be a pretty good tool but still it doesn't work for everyone.

So your shoulder has luxated (popped out of the shoulder socket) several times, but the doc still says no tear on the MRI? Shoulder luxations can be a tricky thing as well. Are you only now starting to do stabilizing work on the joint?

Again, in regards to suggesting specific exercises and movements for your LBP, it's impossible to do without assessing you in person. No one can do that over the internet. It's good to hear that you have at least had some success with physios and doctors (I agree that most chiros are quacks). Just keep that up and listen to their advice! Hopefully you will get something that works well for you!

As it pertains to your back, feel the exercises out. Any increase in back pain and especially neurological symptoms (down the leg) and you shouldn't do them.

I personally don't care for the squat variation with a bosu ball shown on the video as it puts a lot of pressure on the knees and you don't engage your backside at all, but if it feels alright and it works for you, it's a valid choice. Rule of thumb is getting that backside/ass strong. If you can't do regular squats and deadlifts, there are a million other exercises out there for the glutes. Confer with your physio! Finding exercises that strengthen your lower body without aggravating your pain is the way to go. I haven't read the books but from what I've heard I don't think they're well suited for your needs.

Last thing, you say that you have very poor flexibility and can't lift your leg past 90 degrees, is that with the leg straight? If you force it any higher, or bend to touch the ground with your legs straight, do you get any pain down the leg on the backside, or anywhere else? That's for you too @Codger

 

[Hotora86]

@Codger made some good points. It's very hard to specificly suggest anything for chronic LBP. It's such a tricky thing. Even with knowing that it's a L4/L5 hernia on the left side with nerve root compression (whether it's posteolateral or not), there's still no specific exercise that works for all. The symptoms both neurologically and in regards to pain are also incredibly individual. Some patients show several big hernias on an MR, but have no symptoms at all. Others have a small protrusion and are riddled with pain.

This study really displays how much we don't know about especially pain yet:

I'm glad the McKenzie exercies are working out for you somewhat. I'm guessing you are on an extension protocol (on your stomach arching your back pushing the elbows/hands into the floor etc.), or do you have another direction preference? It can be a pretty good tool but still it doesn't work for everyone.

So your shoulder has luxated (popped out of the shoulder socket) several times, but the doc still says no tear on the MRI? Shoulder luxations can be a tricky thing as well. Are you only now starting to do stabilizing work on the joint?

Again, in regards to suggesting specific exercises and movements for your LBP, it's impossible to do without assessing you in person. No one can do that over the internet. It's good to hear that you have at least had some success with physios and doctors (I agree that most chiros are quacks). Just keep that up and listen to their advice! Hopefully you will get something that works well for you!

As it pertains to your back, feel the exercises out. Any increase in back pain and especially neurological symptoms (down the leg) and you shouldn't do them.

I personally don't care for the squat variation with a bosu ball shown on the video as it puts a lot of pressure on the knees and you don't engage your backside at all, but if it feels alright and it works for you, it's a valid choice. Rule of thumb is getting that backside/ass strong. If you can't do regular squats and deadlifts, there are a million other exercises out there for the glutes. Confer with your physio! Finding exercises that strengthen your lower body without aggravating your pain is the way to go. I haven't read the books but from what I've heard I don't think they're well suited for your needs.

Last thing, you say that you have very poor flexibility and can't lift your leg past 90 degrees, is that with the leg straight? If you force it any higher, or bend to touch the ground with your legs straight, do you get any pain down the leg on the backside, or anywhere else? That's for you too @Codger

Thank You @Sano, much obliged for the kind and understanding post.

You are 100% correct on your points and I've heard much of the same from good doctors (and I've seen many). Some thing I guess I just have to let go, others that I found useful to my situation I practice every day and with decent results.

To answer some of the specific questions:
1. McKenzie exercises - exactly the standard back arching on stomach. I know it doesn't work for everybody, luckily it does for me.
2. Shoulder has luxated (popped out of the shoulder socket) several times, but the doc still says no tear on the MRI? - yes. I've done physical therapy rounds before but only since a few months I've started doing stability for the shoulder and upper back daily. It helped.
3. Can't lift your leg past 90 degrees, is that with the leg straight? - yes. If I try harder the pain is mostly in the muscle but nerve pain down the leg may appear later - I usually have a delayed reaction after lifting.
4. It's true that my doctor knows best and it's dumb asking for advice on the internet. That's why I shifted the focus to the books themselves (don't wanna break the forum rules either). I'll still finish the books but so far I don't see how they can be safe for anyone with severe back/joint issues.

Thanks again and train safe!

 

[Sano]

Thank You @Sano, much obliged for the kind and understanding post.

You are 100% correct on your points and I've heard much of the same from good doctors (and I've seen many). Some thing I guess I just have to let go, others that I found useful to my situation I practice every day and with decent results.

To answer some of the specific questions:
1. McKenzie exercises - exactly the standard back arching on stomach. I know it doesn't work for everybody, luckily it does for me.
2. Shoulder has luxated (popped out of the shoulder socket) several times, but the doc still says no tear on the MRI? - yes. I've done physical therapy rounds before but only since a few months I've started doing stability for the shoulder and upper back daily. It helped.
3. Can't lift your leg past 90 degrees, is that with the leg straight? - yes. If I try harder the pain is mostly in the muscle but nerve pain down the leg may appear later - I usually have a delayed reaction after lifting.
4. It's true that my doctor knows best and it's dumb asking for advice on the internet. That's why I shifted the focus to the books themselves (don't wanna break the forum rules either). I'll still finish the books but so far I don't see how they can be safe for anyone with severe back/joint issues.

Thanks again and train safe!

Yeah I thought as much. Good luck with your training and rehab my friend!

 

[JosephDredd]

pavel is one of the very best guys in the business. his books are great, but you may feel you spent too much. He's all about teaching your CNS to generate tension and overcome neural inhibitions, but his muscle building stuff is great, too.

 

[NoSmilez]

I don't think he is innovative but he does a good job of rehashing a lot of things and putting it in one book or two albeit with a splash of comrade or some secret russian technique bullshit. I heard of him maybe 12-15 years ago. My friend was very into dragondoor and got certified blah blah blah. It was kind of cultish but last I heard, that group had a falling out and a lot of pavel's credentials were questioned. Like his master of sports title or how he really isn't russian. Just ugly shit.

The internet resources nowadays are much better now than when I was younger. You didn't have nice websites with good navigation or videos. There are a million fitness gurus online with instructional now. Whoops I didn't realize this was a necro thread from 12 years ago lol