Pac vs. Bradley - Fun with Angles (Updated w/ part 2)

Discipulus

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Pacquiao vs. Bradley 2 was easily superior to the first fight, with Bradley finding an unexpected amount of success with his right hand. Looking at this fight again, there are a lot of lessons to be learned about footwork and angles, especially interesting in the midst of so much misinformation regarding orthodox vs. southpaw strategy.

Let me know what you think!

Pacquiao vs. Bradley 2: Fun with Angles, part 1

There are a lot of confusing opinions and "rules" out there when it comes to fights between orthodox and southpaw fighters. Typically, you will hear that the jab is out as a viable option, and the rear hand is the key weapon. This is a textbook case of fans and pundits recognizing a point, and then heavily overstating it. Yes, against a southpaw you are faced with a shoulder in the way of your jab, and an unusually clear lane for your cross, but to forego the jab and rely almost entirely on the rear hand is tactical suicide.

No one is a better example of this than Manny Pacquiao. Watch any of Pacquiao's first 34 bouts, before he came under the tutelage of Freddie Roach, and you'll see a talented southpaw who follows the conventional wisdom to a T, and nothing else. Left hand after left hand brought Pacquiao a long way, but it took Freddie Roach's jab and right hook to make him the powerhouse that he is today.

So what better than a Pacquiao fight to delve deeper into the complex and little-understood game of angles that is the southpaw vs. orthodox matchup? Better yet was the fact that Tim Bradley found unparalleled success with his right hand, meaning that we can examine both he strengths and weaknesses of each angle available to the open stance fighter.

(Note: I'll be using the term "open stance" which, while not native to boxing, is a convenient term for an encounter between a left-hand-lead and right-hand-lead fighter.)

BASIC FOOTWORK

Before we jump into the fight, let's break down the basic angles available to fighters in an open stance fight. First, and most basic, is the simple step off the center line.

basic_outside_step_diagram_medium.png


Blue and Red start in neutral position, with their front feet lined up. You will see this position constantly in open stance bouts, as both fighters attempt to get past the lead foot of their opponent, and the opponent makes adjustments to stop them doing so. Once this angle has been attained, Blue's left (rear) hand is lined up with Red's center line. This also opens up the lane for a short left hook over Red's left shoulder.

I myself have lazily referred to this movement as "taking an outside angle" in the past, though I can't really consider it a true outside angle. Blue has indeed moved to the outside of Red's lead foot, threatening his center line, but his own center line is exposed. This is where a sharp, quick jab from Red could stop Blue in his tracks. Red can also make a tiny adjustment and have Blue completely at his mercy--more on that in a moment.

Because this angular movement, though necessary, is not "safe" as stronger angles are, I'll refer to it as a "weak outside angle." To be clear, no angle will ever truly protect one fighter from another who knows how to position himself. It's just that this weak angle can be thwarted by Red without Red even having to readjust, while a true angle should force the defender to turn to protect himself or attack, during which movement the aggressor will have a window of opportunity.

Next, let's take a look at a true outside angle.

outside_angle_diagram_medium.png


Here, Blue not only steps outside Red's left foot, but pivots counter-clockwise. You can see immediately how this is a safer, and therefore more threatening angle than the weak outside angle above. Blue can throw virtually any punch he wants, depending on the distance and what targets the position of Red's upper body present to him. Red, meanwhile, cannot hit Blue without first turning to face him. Again, if Red is smart he will adjust immediately, but it is during that adjustment that Blue can essentially hit him for free.

If Blue moves to the outside of Red's lead foot for an outside angle, then of course he would pivot in the opposite direction to take the inside angle. That looks like this:

inside_angle_diagram_medium.png


Blue pivots clockwise, to his left. Once again, Red has no punches immediately available to him, while Blue has a great selection. This is an angle you don't often see in open stance bouts strictly because most boxers have it hammered into their heads that they should always move away from their opponent's rear hand, not into it. But as you can see, by moving toward Red's right hand, Blue has actually passed its trajectory, while giving himself and even better lane for punches with either hand than afforded by the outside angle.

The true beauty of the inside angle is how it can be used to kill the weak outside angle, like so...

Continues at Bloody Elbow...
 
Nice read, thanks TS.

The two best boxers in my MMA club are southpaws, I'll keep this in my mind next time we spar!
 
Nice read, thanks TS.

The two best boxers in my MMA club are southpaws, I'll keep this in my mind next time we spar!

Thanks, man. You can mess a lot of southpaws up if you stop fighting so hard to get your foot outside of theirs and just take the inside angle when they give it to you. Let them step, and then jam their cross with a hard jab. Or, if they get the cross off, let it miss and counter with your own. There was a lot of that in this fight.

Also, I'm quite proud of my diagrams, which are only about 50% as shitty as my old ones used to be.
 
The diagram where you show the DOMINANT inside angle is genius. Never thought of when someone has their lead foot outside in a open stance that if you just make subtle adjustment than you actually have the angle on them. That's pretty good and excited to see more examples.
 
Pacquiao vs. Bradley 2 was easily superior to the first fight, with Bradley finding an unexpected amount of success with his right hand. Looking at this fight again, there are a lot of lessons to be learned about footwork and angles, especially interesting in the midst of so much misinformation regarding orthodox vs. southpaw strategy.

Let me know what you think!

Pacquiao vs. Bradley 2: Fun with Angles, part 1

There are a lot of confusing opinions and "rules" out there when it comes to fights between orthodox and southpaw fighters. Typically, you will hear that the jab is out as a viable option, and the rear hand is the key weapon. This is a textbook case of fans and pundits recognizing a point, and then heavily overstating it. Yes, against a southpaw you are faced with a shoulder in the way of your jab, and an unusually clear lane for your cross, but to forego the jab and rely almost entirely on the rear hand is tactical suicide.

No one is a better example of this than Manny Pacquiao. Watch any of Pacquiao's first 34 bouts, before he came under the tutelage of Freddie Roach, and you'll see a talented southpaw who follows the conventional wisdom to a T, and nothing else. Left hand after left hand brought Pacquiao a long way, but it took Freddie Roach's jab and right hook to make him the powerhouse that he is today.

So what better than a Pacquiao fight to delve deeper into the complex and little-understood game of angles that is the southpaw vs. orthodox matchup? Better yet was the fact that Tim Bradley found unparalleled success with his right hand, meaning that we can examine both he strengths and weaknesses of each angle available to the open stance fighter.

(Note: I'll be using the term "open stance" which, while not native to boxing, is a convenient term for an encounter between a left-hand-lead and right-hand-lead fighter.)

BASIC FOOTWORK

Before we jump into the fight, let's break down the basic angles available to fighters in an open stance fight. First, and most basic, is the simple step off the center line.

basic_outside_step_diagram_medium.png


Blue and Red start in neutral position, with their front feet lined up. You will see this position constantly in open stance bouts, as both fighters attempt to get past the lead foot of their opponent, and the opponent makes adjustments to stop them doing so. Once this angle has been attained, Blue's left (rear) hand is lined up with Red's center line. This also opens up the lane for a short left hook over Red's left shoulder.

I myself have lazily referred to this movement as "taking an outside angle" in the past, though I can't really consider it a true outside angle. Blue has indeed moved to the outside of Red's lead foot, threatening his center line, but his own center line is exposed. This is where a sharp, quick jab from Red could stop Blue in his tracks. Red can also make a tiny adjustment and have Blue completely at his mercy--more on that in a moment.

Because this angular movement, though necessary, is not "safe" as stronger angles are, I'll refer to it as a "weak outside angle." To be clear, no angle will ever truly protect one fighter from another who knows how to position himself. It's just that this weak angle can be thwarted by Red without Red even having to readjust, while a true angle should force the defender to turn to protect himself or attack, during which movement the aggressor will have a window of opportunity.

Next, let's take a look at a true outside angle.

outside_angle_diagram_medium.png


Here, Blue not only steps outside Red's left foot, but pivots counter-clockwise. You can see immediately how this is a safer, and therefore more threatening angle than the weak outside angle above. Blue can throw virtually any punch he wants, depending on the distance and what targets the position of Red's upper body present to him. Red, meanwhile, cannot hit Blue without first turning to face him. Again, if Red is smart he will adjust immediately, but it is during that adjustment that Blue can essentially hit him for free.

If Blue moves to the outside of Red's lead foot for an outside angle, then of course he would pivot in the opposite direction to take the inside angle. That looks like this:

inside_angle_diagram_medium.png


Blue pivots clockwise, to his left. Once again, Red has no punches immediately available to him, while Blue has a great selection. This is an angle you don't often see in open stance bouts strictly because most boxers have it hammered into their heads that they should always move away from their opponent's rear hand, not into it. But as you can see, by moving toward Red's right hand, Blue has actually passed its trajectory, while giving himself and even better lane for punches with either hand than afforded by the outside angle.

The true beauty of the inside angle is how it can be used to kill the weak outside angle, like so...

Continues at Bloody Elbow...

Nice work.

So THIS is how Broner beat Demarco??? If I am correct, seems right because Broner gave up the outside angle almost the whole fight but obviously it didn't have an effect on the fight.
 
It's crazy how everyone, and I mean every fighter / coach I have ever met claims the outside angle is THAT important but you show here that the inside angle is easily just as good if you do it correctly. My question is how would you keep the inside angle effective through out the fight? Just keeping pivoting / baby steps as they're moving also?
 
It's crazy how everyone, and I mean every fighter / coach I have ever met claims the outside angle is THAT important but you show here that the inside angle is easily just as good if you do it correctly. My question is how would you keep the inside angle effective through out the fight? Just keeping pivoting / baby steps as they're moving also?

It's important to take advantage of both, and really doing well with one usually opens up the other. For example, if you pivot to your right as the southpaw steps outside your left foot and crack him with some good shots, it won't be long before he stops stepping past your feet, and even lets you step past his foot, just to keep you from punishing him from the inside again.
 
Nice work.

So THIS is how Broner beat Demarco??? If I am correct, seems right because Broner gave up the outside angle almost the whole fight but obviously it didn't have an effect on the fight.

Yes. I actually posted a link to a sequence from that fight in the comments of my post on BE. Demarco kept going for the "weak" outside angle, and giving Broner his center. Unfortunately for him, neither he nor his trainers realized why he was so incapable of stopping Broner's punches, and getting hurt so badly by them when they landed.

In fact, my go-to example of open stance strategy is Dawson vs. Ward, and in that fight Ward actually used the weak outside angle in reverse, stepping straight forward to the inside of the opponent's lead foot--a weak inside angle, if you will. By constantly stepping into Dawson's stance and peppering him with the jab, he got Dawson to start turning even more side-on than usual, and that's when Ward's straight right and left hook became deadly.
 
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Nice read, thanks TS.

The two best boxers in my MMA club are southpaws, I'll keep this in my mind next time we spar!

Are they actually the best boxers who happen to be southpaw or are they the best boxers because they are southpaw and that throws guys off...
 
I wish you got the credit Jack Slack does for his poorly written spin pieces.
 
Are they actually the best boxers who happen to be southpaw or are they the best boxers because they are southpaw and that throws guys off...

I was thinking the same thing. Southpaws have a natural advantage when it comes to "boxing." You have a lot more opportunities to look slick when your opponents are unfamiliar with how to fight you.

I wish you got the credit Jack Slack does for his poorly written spin pieces.

While I don't think Jack's writing is poor, I do appreciate the sentiment. Thanks for the kind words--the ones meant for me, at least. :icon_chee
 
He's not a good writer. Not bad, not stupid, actually pretty talented, but his structure, verbosity and prose are off.

You don't write like you're up your own ass. Very objective and to the point. How it should be. The praise is no problem at all, dude, thanks for the work you put in.
 
Great article, love the "strong inside angle" part, never really thought about it that way. Really like your style, clean and objective, easily red, nice diagrams and gifs. Congratulations, thanks for sharing and keep it coming.
And nice video in the other thread! I did two so far, so I know it takes time and effort. But yours are slicker, I like the editing, nice soundtrack and audio commentary (I had to write, otherwise my european-english accent would steal the show:D). And of course, the video itself is educational, you have a sharp eye.
 
Anthony was one of the better inside-angle taking Southpaws out of this Gym:



He catches Arni nice in the first couple of second.
 
I have a feeling a lot of people reading the inside angle topic will attempt to try it and blatantly do it wrong. Anyone else have any input to this? How to keep the inside angle effectively? Because this seems like a tactic that could go well but if done wrong could go very bad fast....no?
 
I have a feeling a lot of people reading the inside angle topic will attempt to try it and blatantly do it wrong. Anyone else have any input to this? How to keep the inside angle effectively? Because this seems like a tactic that could go well but if done wrong could go very bad fast....no?

The thing is, an angle isn't something you "keep," unless your opponent has no idea what they or you are doing and just lets you stand to their side and hit them. Just like in grappling, position comes before attack, but the windows of opportunity in striking are 100 times smaller.

This is why the transition is so important in striking. Rather than focus on hitting someone from an angle, focus on getting to that angle and then hitting them while they turn to take the angle away from you. You won't get him to stand in place, but you can force him to react to you, and while he's reacting he isn't punching or defending.

In grappling, you can establish position; in striking, you have to seize it.
 
I have a feeling a lot of people reading the inside angle topic will attempt to try it and blatantly do it wrong. Anyone else have any input to this? How to keep the inside angle effectively? Because this seems like a tactic that could go well but if done wrong could go very bad fast....no?

theres nothing to really "do wrong", its the position on the pictures. ur foot inside or outside, its right there.



what will be wrong is what will be wrong like with everything else, the application in regards to the right timing, what to do after u throw ur punch, seeing the openings etc.. and the only remedy for those things are sparring, drilling and using ur own mind to understand the concept..
 
theres nothing to really "do wrong", its the position on the pictures. ur foot inside or outside, its right there.



what will be wrong is what will be wrong like with everything else, the application in regards to the right timing, what to do after u throw ur punch, seeing the openings etc.. and the only remedy for those things are sparring, drilling and using ur own mind to understand the concept..

I understand what you're saying I think you don't understand what I was saying. In other words I feel like when you're foot is on the outside there's more right things that can go for you then wrong (assuming your opponent doesn't know how to properly take the inside angle) compared to having your foot on the inside which will put yourself in a position which you're more vulnerable IF you don't have right idea in mind which is what I'm asking. What is a must to do when having the foot on the inside?

Because if what you're saying is this, doesn't matter where your foot is just box then there would be no article on this inside and outside angle. There has to be a right and wrong way.

Don't quote me on this but I can bet there is more knockdowns when the opponent has stepped to the outside compared to in. That being said I'm trying to find the nuances to make taking the inside more successful.
 
I understand what you're saying I think you don't understand what I was saying. In other words I feel like when you're foot is on the outside there's more right things that can go for you then wrong (assuming your opponent doesn't know how to properly take the inside angle) compared to having your foot on the inside which will put yourself in a position which you're more vulnerable IF you don't have right idea in mind which is what I'm asking. What is a must to do when having the foot on the inside?

Because if what you're saying is this, doesn't matter where your foot is just box then there would be no article on this inside and outside angle. There has to be a right and wrong way.

Don't quote me on this but I can bet there is more knockdowns when the opponent has stepped to the outside compared to in. That being said I'm trying to find the nuances to make taking the inside more successful.

Read this thread, starting about halfway down the third page.

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f11/video-boxing-sparring-footwork-2705361/index3.html
 
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