Official Women's Division Discussion #25

[Daniel4802]

I didn't see Claudia vs Nina but it sounds like "Claudinha" needs to change some things: maybe a camp that knows how to coach.

 

[Eater of Souls]

I'm pretty sure I've heard them (the commenters) praise Valentina's evasion skills in this fight with JJ tho. Just more as she-moves-herself(=her whole body)-out-of-the-way instead of (just-)moving-the-head.
Maybe they really only consider head-bobbling 'head movement' and file the rest more under general evasion?

Not sure what they consider movement vs. head movement. Val evades quite a bit. Some of it is head movement - although hers could be better as she predominately shifts left when taking her head of the center line. Most of her defense (other than good hand position and fighting/trapping) is control of distance. With small shifts in position she is out of the way of a lot of attacks and when she gets hit she is rarely in the power band of a punch. (rare in comparison to those she is fighting).

 

[Eater of Souls]

It's just that taking her head off the center line and countering has been one of the staples of her game basically since forever:

Yes, it has. And part of her head movement is small shifts in posture. It combines with her footwork to get her head out of the way. I am not saying she never gets hit, but it is integrated with the rest of her movement as it should be. While her head does move independently of the rest of her, head movement (thank you edmond) works better when it is part of a cohesive whole.

This is one of the reasons why Val was landing better shots. Her timing and control of distance along with head movement results in her not getting hit very much and when she does it is often not all that hard as she is either out of the power band or rolls with it.

Or she will adjust her footwork to avoid getting hit when someone counters effectively. She did this when Holly dropped her with a right straight in their fight.

Head movement can exist in isolation, but it works best when it does not.

 

[PurpleStorm]

Jessica Eye def. Katlyn Chookagian via split decision. Eye showed consistent pressure, throwing combinations that kept Katlyn on her heels. Did some damage to Katlyn's face. Kaitlyn got some good kicks & takedown trips. I had Kaitlyn pulling ahead in the second half of round three. Eye got the nod because she was more often the aggressor.

Nina Ansaroff def. Claudia Gadelha. Gadelha came out strong but Nina remained patient. The big uppercut from Nina may have busted Claudia's nose. Ansaroff fought smart, used her reach wisely. Listened to her coaches & showed good iq. Strong jab kept Claudia at bay. Nina poured it on in the third & final round. Big win will move her into top 10.

Valentina Shevchenko defeats Joanna Jedrzejczyk. Shevchenko demonstrated expertise & strength. High kicks & spinning back fists on point. Used footwork & reach to keep Joanna from mounting a consistent offense. Joanna fought with heart, as evidenced by good clinch work and TDD. Especially in winning round 5 even though she was down four. Val's title is well deserved. Those trying to take her belt are in for a big challenge. Talk of Joanna's demise is premature as she's still in the top 3 of two divisions.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Toughest fight for Val currently is Liz C. Right now the best wrestler in the division and quite possibly the strongest. Eye, or Chook, or others who try to keep it on the feet are just going to get pieced up.

JJ did a good job, particularly in wearing Val down and then winning round five.

As to the head movement discussion, JJ did not land a significant strike to the head - according to fightmetric, I believe - until round 3.

That speaks volumes.

 

[aerius]

Watched the Joanna fight again and I think this is the best she's been in a long time, and very close to what I think was her peak in her fights against Valerie & Claudia. Her footwork, timing, and setups were better than in her other ATT trained fights, she was much better at getting back out of range in exchanges instead of hanging around in the pocket and getting tagged, and she was able to adjust her tactics when things weren't working to find some success. IMO this version of Joanna beats Rose, the body work she did against Shevchenko was enough to slow her down late in the fight and it would've melted Namajunas.

Joanna's low kick game was shut down, she's been kicking the crap out of her opponents' legs since the Valerie fight and even Rose got her leg chewed up in the rematch. Valentina would slide her leg back and counter, step in with her own strikes to catch JJ on one leg, or check the kicks shin to shin instead of just lifting the leg. Joanna threw & landed a lot fewer low kicks than she usually does.

On the other hand, Joanna made a good adjustment and started really attacking Valentina's body when her other strikes weren't working. She started with some jabs & front kicks in round 2, then started adding in more punches, kicks, and a few knees later on. This was what slowed Valentina down a bit and allowed Joanna to rally in the championship rounds and finish the fight strong.

I think this was a great performance by 2 amazing fighters. We are fortunate to have Joanna and Valentina in the prime of their fighting careers. I will always be a fan of both.

 

[Eater of Souls]

A couple of spinning back kick gifs I pulled from another thread:



What I really like is that she spins into the kick for a little more range/power.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Watched the Joanna fight again and I think this is the best she's been in a long time, and very close to what I think was her peak in her fights against Valerie & Claudia. Her footwork, timing, and setups were better than in her other ATT trained fights, she was much better at getting back out of range in exchanges instead of hanging around in the pocket and getting tagged, and she was able to adjust her tactics when things weren't working to find some success. IMO this version of Joanna beats Rose, the body work she did against Shevchenko was enough to slow her down late in the fight and it would've melted Namajunas.

Joanna's low kick game was shut down, she's been kicking the crap out of her opponents' legs since the Valerie fight and even Rose got her leg chewed up in the rematch. Valentina would slide her leg back and counter, step in with her own strikes to catch JJ on one leg, or check the kicks shin to shin instead of just lifting the leg. Joanna threw & landed a lot fewer low kicks than she usually does.

On the other hand, Joanna made a good adjustment and started really attacking Valentina's body when her other strikes weren't working. She started with some jabs & front kicks in round 2, then started adding in more punches, kicks, and a few knees later on. This was what slowed Valentina down a bit and allowed Joanna to rally in the championship rounds and finish the fight strong.

I think this was a great performance by 2 amazing fighters. We are fortunate to have Joanna and Valentina in the prime of their fighting careers. I will always be a fan of both.

I generally like and respect your posts, but this one has me scratching my head. Unlike yourself, I'm not a fan of Joanna. However, I'm a bettor, so I very frequently bet against fighters I love and favor ones that I hate.

I was initially considering betting on Joanna against Valentina since she was such a huge underdog, but a study of tape convinced me to put money on Valentina, even at -305.

Despite this, Joanna underperformed even my own expectations. She was dominated and shut out by Valentina, easily beaten on the feet and repeatedly taken down from the clinch and held down.

Her stand-up showed no improvements since the second Rose fight, and possible regression. Specifically, Joanna's constant punching of air, which she used to do rarely or not at all, helped Valentina set up her counters a lot, and also betrayed how tentative she was.

Rogan and his fellow commentators were clearly told through the headset in round 4 (when it was obvious Valentina would win the decision) to make Joanna sound good, as they would be promoting her again in the future. Thus, they tried to spin a silly narrative about her coming back and doing well in later rounds as she was getting her ass kicked in rounds 4 and 5.

Some people bought this, but that doesn't alter the reality of what happened.

More relevantly, Joanna dominated 115 when it was a new, raw division. Now that it has developed, and her previous best wins like Gadelha, Karolina, and Esparza are themselves being beaten up by these new contenders, she isn't so great anymore.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Joanna, IMO, wound up punching air due to Val's superior timing and control of distance. One of the things that Val does very well is make her opponents miss. I am going to re-watch it later today, and will probably have more to offer after doing so. I do not think JJ was getting her ass kicked in round five. Val was slowing down a bit, and some of her attacks did not have the same sharpness.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Is there a better site than Fight Metric to look at the numbers? Re-watching the fight right now.

 

[WingsLax9042]

I didn't see Claudia vs Nina but it sounds like "Claudinha" needs to change some things: maybe a camp that knows how to coach.

Joanna should leave ATT and form her own team with Claudia... they've both taken a step back.

And I think Joanna is 2-3 since she changed her entrance music. Shouldn't fuck with what works.... especially when you replace it with garbage.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Joanna should leave ATT and form her own team with Claudia... they've both taken a step back.

And I think Joanna is 2-3 since she changed her entrance music. Shouldn't fuck with what works.... especially when you replace it with garbage.

As I make an effort to ignore entrance music, what was it and what did she change it to? Odds are good I have otherwise never heard it if it is something remotely current/popular.

 

[Kaybee]

Joanna should leave ATT and form her own team with Claudia... they've both taken a step back.

It was always meant to be!

 

[WingsLax9042]

It was this:


I couldn't even tell you what its been since she changed it, I don't know if its been the same each time or not, but its been shit each time. Not walkout-getting fired up music...

That old entrance gets me fired the fuck up. haha.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Joanna, IMO, wound up punching air due to Val's superior timing and control of distance.

Joanna was punching air less than a minute into the fight, with Valentina standing stationary in front of her. There wasn't any movement or countering going on in this situation. At all.

While I like both Valentina and Thug Rose, at some point you can't explain away everything that happens on them being such masterful fighters, but rather, Joanna's own limitations and flaws.

I do not think JJ was getting her ass kicked in round five.

Perhaps, but she certainly was in round 4, when Rogan and company first started blatantly cheerleading her.

 

[aerius]

I generally like and respect your posts, but this one has me scratching my head. Unlike yourself, I'm not a fan of Joanna. However, I'm a bettor, so I very frequently bet against fighters I love and favor ones that I hate.

I was initially considering betting on Joanna against Valentina since she was such a huge underdog, but a study of tape convinced me to put money on Valentina, even at -305.

Despite this, Joanna underperformed even my own expectations. She was dominated and shut out by Valentina, easily beaten on the feet and repeatedly taken down from the clinch and held down.

Her stand-up showed no improvements since the second Rose fight, and possible regression. Specifically, Joanna's constant punching of air, which she used to do rarely or not at all, helped Valentina set up her counters a lot, and also betrayed how tentative she was.

Rogan and his fellow commentators were clearly told through the headset in round 4 (when it was obvious Valentina would win the decision) to make Joanna sound good, as they would be promoting her again in the future. Thus, they tried to spin a silly narrative about her coming back and doing well in later rounds as she was getting her ass kicked in rounds 4 and 5.

Some people bought this, but that doesn't alter the reality of what happened.

More relevantly, Joanna dominated 115 when it was a new, raw division. Now that it has developed, and her previous best wins like Gadelha, Karolina, and Esparza are themselves being beaten up by these new contenders, she isn't so great anymore.

Joanna always punches air early in her fights unless you run at her. Generally speaking it takes a couple minutes or so for her to consistently find the range with her jab and start opening up to land at a higher clip. She's not like Valentina who instinctively knows the distance, she needs to touch her way in with the jab, feel the range, then start connecting consistently. Watch her fight against Valerie Letourneau, she spends the first half of round 1 punching air. Every single Joanna fight starts with her probing with low kicks and trying to find the distance with her jab, and until her jab starts touching she punches a lot of air.

The problem is Valentina doesn't let the jab touch until Joanna started jabbing to the body which prevented JJ from figuring out her range and landing punches at her usual rate. She retreats or slips most of the jabs, and when she does parry or block them with her hand she doesn't have her lead hand at the same distance each time which gives JJ a false feel of the distance. Rose was also able to do this to a lesser extent with her footwork and head movement. By denying her the feel of range she reduces Joanna's striking accuracy a fair amount, and Valentina's defensive skills degrade it even further.

As for Joanna's standup, this is the best it's been since her move to ATT, it didn't look that way because Valentina is just that good, she's the best shutdown fighter in WMMA and nobody looks good against her. Joanna wasn't planting in the pocket and throwing combos like she did against Rose and Tecia, which allowed them to crack her back. She was getting better exits on her sequences and being a lot more defensively responsible. She picked her entries better and didn't over-commit and leave herself in bad positions like she did against Rose and Tecia. Strike selection was better, and ability to make in-fight adjustments of her targeting & combos was way better than her last few fights. We got a lot of the Polish trained Joanna back where she'd identify a weakness, start hitting it, and then build her strike selection & combos around exploiting that weakness and leveraging it to open up her opponent's defence and start hitting everything else.

 

[WingsLax9042]

oanna always punches air early in her fights unless you run at her. Generally speaking it takes a couple minutes or so for her to consistently find the range with her jab and start opening up to land at a higher clip. She's not like Valentina who instinctively knows the distance, she needs to touch her way in with the jab, feel the range, then start connecting consistently. Watch her fight against Valerie Letourneau, she spends the first half of round 1 punching air. Every single Joanna fight starts with her probing with low kicks and trying to find the distance with her jab, and until her jab starts touching she punches a lot of air.

I'm the biggest Joanna fan... but I felt she lost the first two rounds against Val. Its been a long time since I rewatched that fight... but she ALWAYS starts slow. Always has. It sounds retarded... but she should almost do two full rounds in the back.... because she's routinely not really gotten started til round three more then a few times.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Joanna was punching air less than a minute into the fight, with Valentina standing stationary in front of her. There wasn't any movement or countering going on in this situation. At all.

While I like both Valentina and Thug Rose, at some point you can't explain away everything that happens on them being such masterful fighters, but rather, Joanna's own limitations and flaws.



Perhaps, but she certainly was in round 4, when Rogan and company first started blatantly cheerleading her.

I am not explaining it all away, thanks.

Some of her air shots are faints, some are Val controlling distance and her superior timing, others are JJ not doing as well as she used to.

As to people cheerleading her, I would not know. I have the sound off.

 

[WingsLax9042]

As to people cheerleading her, I would not know. I have the sound off.

Fuckin unblock me you piece of garbage! haha.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Joanna always punches air early in her fights unless you run at her. Generally speaking it takes a couple minutes or so for her to consistently find the range with her jab and start opening up to land at a higher clip. She's not like Valentina who instinctively knows the distance, she needs to touch her way in with the jab, feel the range, then start connecting consistently. Watch her fight against Valerie Letourneau, she spends the first half of round 1 punching air. Every single Joanna fight starts with her probing with low kicks and trying to find the distance with her jab, and until her jab starts touching she punches a lot of air.

It takes a few fighters some time to learn distance and they frequently do this. It is a method of learning. While I do not favor it, I do understand the need for some people to do it. It often takes a while to get your opponents timing down, and there are a variety of ways to do this.

The problem is Valentina doesn't let the jab touch until Joanna started jabbing to the body which prevented JJ from figuring out her range and landing punches at her usual rate. She retreats or slips most of the jabs, and when she does parry or block them with her hand she doesn't have her lead hand at the same distance each time which gives JJ a false feel of the distance. Rose was also able to do this to a lesser extent with her footwork and head movement. By denying her the feel of range she reduces Joanna's striking accuracy a fair amount, and Valentina's defensive skills degrade it even further.

As for Joanna's standup, this is the best it's been since her move to ATT, it didn't look that way because Valentina is just that good, she's the best shutdown fighter in WMMA and nobody looks good against her. Joanna wasn't planting in the pocket and throwing combos like she did against Rose and Tecia, which allowed them to crack her back. She was getting better exits on her sequences and being a lot more defensively responsible. She picked her entries better and didn't over-commit and leave herself in bad positions like she did against Rose and Tecia. Strike selection was better, and ability to make in-fight adjustments of her targeting & combos was way better than her last few fights. We got a lot of the Polish trained Joanna back where she'd identify a weakness, start hitting it, and then build her strike selection & combos around exploiting that weakness and leveraging it to open up her opponent's defence and start hitting everything else.

JJ did manage to angle out a few times instead of just moving straight back. Also she made Val work very hard for some of her takedowns, which was very smart of her.

I also think this was still not JJ's best performance. I scored the last round even, so am not going to argue about the judging to any degree, but I did not have her winning a round. She just fought someone better than her. This happens to everyone sooner or later, and some of us more frequently than we would like. Props to her for stepping up.