Official Women's Division Discussion #20

[thatdude21601]

Rizin is not showcasing the women seriously.how can you watch those three fights last night and think that?

How can you not?

Nobody is fighting Korean teenagers here. Full rules reffed by Jason Herzog in front of a crowd of more than 400 is already better than anything Deep Jewels has done.

Kanako Murata got shipped off on her second fight to get experience overseas. Fought a world class kickboxer transitioning to MMA her third fight, and now a pretty good American grappler in her fourth. Nobody in Japan is investing in prospects this way. The closest is Pancrase with Syuri Kondo. RIZIN could do wonders for other WMMA fighters in Japan.

 

[leto1776]

How can you not?

Nobody is fighting Korean teenagers here. Full rules reffed by Jason Herzog in front of a crowd of more than 400 is already better than anything Deep Jewels has done.

Kanako Murata got shipped off on her second fight to get experience overseas. Fought a world class kickboxer transitioning to MMA her third fight, and now a pretty good American grappler in her fourth. Nobody in Japan is investing in prospects this way. The closest is Pancrase with Syuri Kondo. RIZIN could do wonders for other WMMA fighters in Japan.

Murakami took on and out muscled a visibly much smaller opponent from a lower weight class, who while scrapp, isn't that good. Cyborg gets a lot of crap for the same thing.

Yamamoto was only fighting based on the storyline. Her only hope going in there was her wrestling. She's hot, but too old to be starting a fight career.

Garcia? Pure freak show.

 

[thatdude21601]

-Yeah Gabi is in freakshow fights. So is Baruto. Welcome to Japan.

- For a 1-0 kickboxer, even an aging world class wrester is risky test. This was a good fight on paper.

-Go find me a viable prospect on DEEP Jewels 13 other than Kanna Asakura. Batara beats everyone on the card, and everyone announced for Deep Jewels 14. Murata is a wrecking ball less than a year into a career. Maybe she struggles with someone from TEAM DATE? You want to see her fight Ashley Greenway?

Instead of nitpicking at individual fights (which were fine) look at the rules & officiating being the same as the men. Huge step up for Japan. Women weren't even allowed in Pride. This is women in the UFC for Japan.

 

[leto1776]

You're riding high on weeaboo status.

You're way overrating Batara, and completely ignoring the size difference I brought up.

 

[thatdude21601]

What would WMMA in the US look like if it still had three minute rounds, and only existed on webstreams, or not filmed at all?

I didn't ignore the size difference. I mentioned Korean teenagers & TEAM DATE.

Edit: Size mismatches are normal, an atomweight vs a strawweight isn't Cyborg at 175 vs someone at 140.

weeaboo status.

I had to look this up lol. That's not it. Brazil, Poland, and China have really cool growing WMMA scenes. Unlike the women's side in Japan, it's on the bigger television promotions in all these places with complete rules same as men's fights.

 

[leto1776]

What would WMMA in the US look like if it still had three minute rounds, [\B]and only existed on webstreams, or not filmed at all?

I didn't ignore the size difference. I mentioned Korean teenagers & TEAM DATE.

Edit: Size mismatches are normal, an atomweight vs a strawweight isn't Cyborg at 175 vs someone at 140.



I had to look this up lol. That's not it. Brazil, Poland, and China have really cool growing WMMA scenes. Unlike the women's side in Japan, it's on the bigger television promotions in all these places with complete rules same as men's fights.

WMMA in the U.S. always operated under full unified rules with five minute rounds.

You're looking through the rosy colored shades of fanaticism, while ignoring the truths of a freak show match, a size mismatch, and a skill set mismatch with a freak show age difference.

 

[thatdude21601]

WMMA in the U.S. always operated under full unified rules with five minute rounds.

This isn't true at all. Gina fought on television with three minute rounds. Strikeforce, Elite XC.

 

[leto1776]

This isn't true at all. Gina fought on television with three minute rounds. Strikeforce, Elite XC.

Maybe Elite XC, which was a shit show from start to finish, but strikeforce, HookNShoot, Bellator, KOTC, everywhere else had full 5 minute rounds.

Rizin is not the future for wmma. Get over it.

 

[thatdude21601]

Maybe Elite XC, which was a shit show from start to finish, but strikeforce, HookNShoot, Bellator, KOTC, everywhere else had full 5 minute rounds.

Strikeforce early on also had three minute round fights for women too.

Rizin is not the future for wmma. Get over it.

I don't think we are debating the same thing? Strikeforce/EliteXC wasn't the future for WMMA either, but big fights on TV sure did kickstart it.

 

[Charlie77]

So was I the only one who thought Cyborg looked emaciated and much less muscular for this fight? Seems like the last two cuts have really affected her. She didn't seem as sharp or quick as in previous bouts. It's too bad there aren't more 145ers she can be competitive against. It's like seeing Rumble Johnson fighting at welterweight, yeah he can do it but he's much funner to watch at 205.

I would love to see more Top-10 BW's face Cris in a superfight though. There's so many legitimate women they could have face her and they would make a much more intriguing matchup.

 

[Daniel4802]

So was I the only one who thought Cyborg looked emaciated and much less muscular for this fight? Seems like the last two cuts have really affected her. She didn't seem as sharp or quick as in previous bouts. It's too bad there aren't more 145ers she can be competitive against. It's like seeing Rumble Johnson fighting at welterweight, yeah he can do it but he's much funner to watch at 205.

I would love to see more Top-10 BW's face Cris in a superfight though. There's so many legitimate women they could have face her and they would make a much more intriguing matchup.

Cyborg was 170 lbs in the cage; her walking weight was 175 lbs. So after rehydration, replenishing glycogen, food weight, waste weight, etc. the only weight she was missing was the few lbs of fat mass she "shrunk" and a negligible amount of lean mass.

This recent stint was hard, though. But that's because she started at 175 with 8 weeks while, against Smith, Cyborg began at 172 with 12 weeks to drop. Needless to say, she supposedly ate very little the last 3 days.

 

[ions82]

Some of the "freak show" fights and Cyborg smash-downs can probably be considered to be "growing pains" for WMMA. In time, some of the kinks will probably work themselves out. It took men's MMA a while to become legitimate or mainstream. WMMA has come a long way in just a few years. I'm not surprised that it isn't already a completely level playing field. Give it some time. It will only continue to get better.

 

[curryjunkie]

as far as im concerned if you outweigh an opponent by 30 pounds in the cage, one who has a quarter of your fight experience, its irrelevant how hard the weight cut is or how long you had to do it.
the fault lies with the UFC in making this shit and presenting it as a legitimate bout.
if she fought someone like de randamie, id accept that as a credible bout, otherwise its pointless and sets wmma back years.
they may as well wear bikinis and do it in jello.

 

[leto1776]

I don't think we are debating the same thing? Strikeforce/EliteXC wasn't the future for WMMA either, but big fights on TV sure did kickstart it.

You're right on this instance, in that you actually said Rizin might be the most important thing happening to WMMA in Japan right now.

However, I disagree with that point entirely. Rules aside, I don't foresee Rizin growing the women's divisions. I predict they will continue using a select few fighters to make stars out of, and bringing in outside fighters to "feed" to them, much like ONE and Angela Lee.

Also, overprotective Deep referees>referees with the production truck talking in their ear, making sure things "go right."

 

[thatdude21601]

I don't foresee Rizin growing the women's divisions. I predict they will continue using a select few fighters to make stars out of, and bringing in outside fighters to "feed" to them, much like ONE and Angela Lee.

I'm sure you're right about their intentions being similar to ONE, but ONE has some other really good fighters on their roster now as a side effect.

 

[Eater of Souls]

So was I the only one who thought Cyborg looked emaciated and much less muscular for this fight? Seems like the last two cuts have really affected her. She didn't seem as sharp or quick as in previous bouts. It's too bad there aren't more 145ers she can be competitive against. It's like seeing Rumble Johnson fighting at welterweight, yeah he can do it but he's much funner to watch at 205.

I would love to see more Top-10 BW's face Cris in a superfight though. There's so many legitimate women they could have face her and they would make a much more intriguing matchup.

I am shit-sick of Cyborg and the crap she has pulled. Until she makes 135, I will never watch another squash match of hers. When she learns to honor a contract, her word and does something to make up for her history of cheating and her lack of professionalism / refusal to make weight, my attitude may change. I used to have hopes for her, but no longer do.

Her conduct is even worse than Ronda's, which is really saying something.

 

[leto1776]

Mizuki posted this on her Facebook page:
Hello, this is MIZUKI from Hakushin-kai.

Unfortunately, I injured my ACL and going under the knife on Tuesday. (Which is actually now)

In Japan, RIZIN Fighting Federation was on live national television, Invicta Fighting Championships was also televised live via Abema TV, and, in November, UFC is promoting its first show in MSG, New York, and the fighter I've fought in the past, Karolina Kowalkiewicz, is fighting Joanna Jedrzejczyk in the title fight.

While women's MMA is going through a big movement in the worldwide scale, I have to be hospitalized, followed by a rehab.
My heart is now filled with deep regret, extreme frustration, and tremendous sadness, however, I am trying to think, this is the crucible the god has given me so I can get stronger.

I am not rushing but by early next year, I want to show stronger and better MIZUKI to all my supporters and fans around the world, and I am going to try hardest to make this happen so please don't forget about me!

Finally, to all of my fans, everyone at Invicta FC, and also, to everyone at DEEP JEWELS in Japan, sorry that I'd have be inactive for a while but would like to thank you in advance because I will be back strong!!

MIZUKI
Hakushin-kai

I'm sure you're right about their intentions being similar to ONE, but ONE has some other really good fighters on their roster now as a side effect.

Not really. They've only had two females fight for them regularly, Lee and Osman. Only fighter that easily comes to memory who has for for them more than once is Mei Yamaguchi.

 

[leto1776]

 

[Xuh]

Instead of nitpicking at individual fights (which were fine) look at the rules & officiating being the same as the men. Huge step up for Japan. Women weren't even allowed in Pride. This is women in the UFC for Japan.

leto seems to be on a bashing streak of lashing out at RIZIN and other nice things (like Randa Markos or Mark Zima or Saori Yoshida or defenseless street orphan baby sherdog moderators) lately. Seems a sign of some issues IMO and anyone who criticises RIZIN is obviously in need of an intervention and possibly beyond help anyway so there's no point trying to kick facts in a debate. I mean just look at the language he has to descend to: 'rosy colored shades of fanaticism' (lolwat, coz being positive about RIZIN obviously makes you a fanatic) and 'weeaboo' ( hurr durr ). Also contrast it to his attitude about ONEFC and the fat-on-a-diet-of-cans duo of Angela Lee + Ann Osman, whom he loves and can't get enough of and never has a bad word to say about.

Anyway I completely agree with all your points you nailed it 100% and in particular with regard to Murato's training, after her first match in RIZIN I thought they might fuck it up by throwing her in deep end matches like PRIDE sometimes did (eg Nastula) but instead they had her going out places like KOTC getting experience. Sure Batara is smaller (but not THAT much so, hello Cybrog who just headlined the 'only legitimate org' UFC) but she has good experience and impressive wins (such as Liz McCarthy and WMMA fan favorite Celine Haga) and women often flit between divisions due to a variety of reasons (105 and 115 in particular at the moment it seems). On paper this was a tough match for Murato IMO and that she dominated it as she did only shows what an A level athlete can do with 6 weeks of sprawl striking and subs training

I'm particularly pleased that the Japanese women seem to be congealing some kind of high level fight camp, since they have the best women grapplers (wrestling and judo) and boxers too I was worried they wouldn't be able to coordinate (like their men haven't) but things seem to be happening in the right way and RIZIN is obviously already a factor in that, whatever matchups they have in the future and whatever ppl blind by spite think. It means we will be seeing great performances in the future from them (I also have the same hopes for Russian guys who are just starting to slowly get there but still no olympian or world teamers yet - Khabib is the thin end of the wedge - another thing leto hates ).

Compare the effect PRIDE had just by being there - after it folded there was a major brain drain of MMA talent to america (especially from Brazil) which left the world scene poorer as a result. Now with just a few shows we can see an effect with the country's top kickboxers and world elite wrestlers coming together in MMA training in Japan (as well as the deep well of east euro talent - male and female - getting an outlet). If you can't see how that's good for WMMA you need to flush away your hateraide, slap yourself a bit and sober up, then come back with a clear and open mind and reconsider your 'tude.
If RIZIN folds quickly then so be it but I don't see how that can be a cause for gloating other than if you're a dickhead, or Dana White (insert obvious joke here).

It would also be good to see Mizuki hooking up with that posse a bit although she seems to be doing well enough by herself (or was ).

I also like how Murato is already making herself more 'marketable', from a rather brutish looking tomboy the bright hair and fun posing, it's nice to see ppl expressing their character and having fun when given a platform to do so.

to end on a downer, bummer that Gabi won

 

[leto1776]

leto seems to be on a bashing streak of lashing out at RIZIN and other nice things (like Randa Markos or Mark Zima or Saori Yoshida or defenseless street orphan baby sherdog moderators) lately. Seems a sign of some issues IMO and anyone who criticises RIZIN is obviously in need of an intervention and possibly beyond help anyway so there's no point trying to kick facts in a debate. I mean just look at the language he has to descend to: 'rosy colored shades of fanaticism' (lolwat, coz being positive about RIZIN obviously makes you a fanatic) and 'weeaboo' ( hurr durr ). Also contrast it to his attitude about ONEFC and the fat-on-a-diet-of-cans duo of Angela Lee + Ann Osman, whom he loves and can't get enough of and never has a bad word to say about.

Wow, Xuh. Seems to me like you're the close minded one, and spouting falsehoods, as well.

I actually have nothing against Markos. I just thought she was overrated coming off of TUF and it's fun to tease HI about it.

I never said anything about Yoshida. Actually, I accused you of dropping her in favor of another wrestler as soon as she lost. Facts wrong again.


So Rizin is beyond any and all criticism? That's looking through the rosy shades of fanaticism if I ever saw it.

I've said lots of negative things about ONE and their preferential treatment of Lee, and how they dumped Osman for a year after a loss. Once again, like most of your posts, you're just making shit up to fit a narrative.

People wanna fall all over themselves for Rizin, be my guest. People were doing the same for Dream, WVR/Sengoku, Yarenokka and Heroes. I had high hopes for Dream myself. I'm not getting my hopes up like that ever again.

Let me know when Rizin actually has their own roster and doesn't rely on fighters contracted to other organizations.